Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too.

I'm Lily,

And I am Sarah, and today we will be talking about City of All Seasons by Oliver Kay Lang Mead and Aaliyah Whiteley.

but before we get into that, our quick five minute introduction.

Sarah, what's something great that happened recently?

This is more of an ongoing thing than a, recent thing.

But I have finally, finally started reorganizing my garage.

So I got rid of some big pieces of furniture that were being stored there, or rather, they haven't been picked up yet, but I called the city and they will be picked up.

And then the next step is to take out the very old wooden shelving and put in new shelving.

And it's been on my to-do list for a long time, so I'm very excited that I'm actually doing it.

Finally.

That is exciting.

That's a huge project.

I think it's going to be smaller of a project than I was expecting.

But it is going to take, you know, a couple of weekends.

Yeah.

Well, very cool.

Good for you.

Mine is not nearly so responsible.

I bought the gaudiest Christmas jumpsuit today.

Oh my.

It has sequins.

It is really stupid and I love it so much.

you going to wear it for the family Christmas party?

I'm gonna wear it every day for the next month.

Yeah, it's.

Dumb and great.

I look forward to seeing it.

I almost wore it for the recording, but the sequence are kind of itchy.

I need to wear an undershirt with it.

So preparedness.

But anyway,

Delightful.

it's really fun.

What are you drinking tonight?

My parents were over earlier this evening for a family cocktail hour where we drank wine.

So I am continuing the theme of the evening by having a glass of wine

Lovely.

I have some reheated mulled, apple cider.

It's very good

mulled.

Apple cider is amazing.

I love it.

and it felt on theme for this book, so.

I know that this book takes place in the winter city and the summer city, but because it's so like chilly out, I definitely vibed with the winter scenes more just because I was like, it is cold.

Yes.

And have you read anything lately other than podcast reading and is it Sotia?

It is Sost.

I have not read enough Sost, but I have read Sost.

We are in the same boat I got a marathon ahead of me tomorrow,

Yeah, me too.

Kind of

So the city of all Seasons I think was not a book for me.

I.

Some just core mismatch with it, in a way I wasn't totally expecting.

I'm gonna go get the book.

I'm curious what the back says.

Okay.

I ended up really loving this book.

You mentioned in our notes that you think it's more magical realism as a genre, and I would agree with that.

It does kind of skew fantasy, but it's very magical realism.

Yeah, the description of the book made me think it was gonna be different.

So it's a city has undergone an event that is mysterious and, and gets explored a little bit throughout.

I mean, it's, what the hell happened is one of the questions in the book, right?

And sort of created two versions of the city, the summer version and the winter version.

And I definitely thought there was gonna be a lot more of that and a lot less family drama, which is simply not of interest to me.

So I do wish that the description of the book, or at least.

Looking at the back of the book, it doesn't talk about the Pike family at all.

Yeah, the, the back of the book doesn't really talk about the fact that a lot of this book is about family relationships.

And we even when it's not about family relationships, it is

It is still kind of about family relationships.

Yeah.

that is not directly about the Pike Family is a metaphor for the Pike family.

you're, you're right, that the back of the book is not wholly descriptive of that.

I did read the, like the author blurbs, at the front of the book, which leans heavily on that element.

Like all of these author statements talk about how much it focuses on family relationships.

So I think that I was a little less surprised going into it than you were maybe

And it's not just that I was surprised, it's also that that is not a plot I would pick up.

Like

right.

I know that I'm not interested in that.

I would typically not choose to read a book about that.

But when we decided to add this book to our list for the podcast, we had read the description, which was not about that.

To be fair, I think the entirety of our decision to read this book for the podcast stemmed around the fact that it is about two cousins and we are two cousins.

And so we said we're gonna read it.

I mean, yeah.

But.

Also two different versions of one city.

What happened?

How can they communicate with each other?

That is a very different, it's just a different vibe than, than what this book was, which is fine.

Like I think the book is good at what it is.

It's just not what I would've picked up and not what I expected based on the description.

Yeah, that's fair.

I mean, I actually really loved this book and I do think that it talks like it, it does explore a little bit.

Well, not even a little bit.

It, it does explore what happened to the city,

But that's still about the family

it's still, it is still about the family.

And not just about the family, about inter-family drama specifically.

yeah, this book was very, I'm gonna say dreamlike.

Whimsical was a word that came up, but not like.

Not whimsy, but whimsical

Yeah.

Yeah.

it, very different

and so that really worked for me.

But I also do enjoy.

The kind of family drama, I think, a little bit more than you do specifically when it is set in a fantasy set.

Like, I don't want to read real world family drama stories, but give me the, the trappings of fantasy and I'm fine.

literary fiction.

Yeah, I wasn't super into the whole point of the book and that's a hard hurdle to get over.

It is a hard hurdle to get over.

And then it is magical realism.

Yeah.

You can't actually like.

Shunt a one version of a city into a universe that is always winter.

That's not real.

But there were other things in this book that were so not real, that were just distracting.

To me

I don't understand that.

it's okay.

Multiple universes and versions of a place.

That's fine.

These other details were so, hmm.

Like understated that they just ended up sticking out instead of being like, yes, this is a fantasy world.

I don't know.

Does that like, I mean, you disagree, but does that

I, I definitely disagree.

That does make sense to me, but that was so much not my experience of the book.

I like some of it.

I don't know.

A whole island of quirky inventors.

Like

Yeah, but like it's a fantasy book.

I mean, yes, magical realism, whatever, whatever, but like it's not supposed to be analogous to the real world necessarily.

Yeah, except there were details that were so far fantasy.

I was like, yeah, sure, of course.

And then there, there were details that were completely realistic, like the two oldest brothers not getting along, and that making it really awkward for the rest of the family, too realistic.

And that happens every day and everything in between, just like.

Felt off in a way that didn't feel fantasy.

It was just like, Hmm, that, no, to me, and that might have just been because I wasn't into the basic concept.

I mean, I, I do think that, that was very much because you weren't into the basic concept.

I really enjoyed the different layers of, the fantasy aspects in this world, and particularly how understated some of them were.

Like.

Powell, who is the stepfather to Esther.

Esther, one of the main characters is able to make tools that are just kind of somewhat magical.

It's never explained.

It's never gone into, and I loved that it was just this little random detail that doesn't matter.

It is remarked upon though like Esther and Jamie both go, was that me just being a kid or did he actually make a kite that could fly without wind?

And then sort of.

They realized that yes, he actually had done that.

Like there are those kinds of capabilities in this world.

So it's not,

I, I guess what I'm saying is like, they, they discussed it a little bit, but it's not a major plot point for the book that he could make this kite.

On the other hand, him using a screwdriver made entirely out of wood.

I just can't, I'm sorry, I can't,

but he, but he makes magical tools.

Why is it, why is that one such a stretch?

I don't know.

Like I do think it goes hand in hand.

Maybe.

yeah.

You, you just had much more difficulty with the basic premise of the book.

Yeah, I think, I think that's just it.

You know, I'm gonna be less forgiving what I'm already forcing myself to read it,

Yeah.

and that's simply unfair.

I mean, but that's, that's reading sometimes.

It is.

This book is also so much about cinema and I don't give a shit about cinema and like, not movies, cinema

It is very much about cinema.

Yes.

Their grandmother was a famous director and had a lot of influence in the city.

She was the, the prodigal son essentially.

and she does come up quite a bit.

and all of the movies we hear about are not movies.

They are artsy fartsy scenes with like a clip of the town and then it's everyone's in black and white, but a ballerina's dressed in red, walking the other direction from every like not a movie.

I don't like watching that kind of thing, and I really don't like reading about that kind of thing.

one of them was a, was a like Blockbuster movie.

The

But we don't hear a single word about it.

yeah.

We do, We

made one.

no, no, no.

We, we, we get a whole, we get a whole scene about how the producer like repainted houses and stuff.

Yeah.

We don't know what happens in it though.

I

no, we don't know what happens in it.

That's true.

like

true.

But it is a roaring blockbuster success.

everything else she makes is apparently 45 second clips, because those descriptions would not last longer than that.

That they play in a theater.

Who goes to a theater for a 45 second clip?

I mean, I thought some of them were like five minutes, but they're, they're short.

They are very artsy fartsy.

I wouldn't care for them either.

I mean, I'd have no interest in actually watching them.

No.

But those are the films that everyone on the island loved.

They liked her, her true work and not her blockbusters.

So not only is this an island full of quirky inventors, they're also all cinema snobs,

Well, all of, all of her older stuff, which is what they liked, was about the island and so they're not cinema snobs necessarily.

They're just very self-involved.

I guess.

so yeah, it was just not, it just doesn't hit any of my interests.

Yeah.

I'm not a cinema person either.

But I didn't care.

Yeah.

I'm actually really curious if someone who does like film.

Would like this or if they'd be like, that's not how it works.

I mean, but it's not trying to be how it works,

I know, but if that's something that you care a lot about, that's still gonna bug you.

maybe.

If this, if it was all about like book binding and they just kind of glossed over it and made it artsy fartsy and not quite right, you would complain about that.

But the point is, so if the point of the book was about the book binding, I would agree with you, but the point of the book is not about the cinema and it's not about trying to be accurate.

So I'm not sure that I agree with you.

I'm not saying that you're wrong.

I'm saying that it could go either way.

Yeah.

like cinema not being one of my interests.

I don't know.

But, I'm curious someone who cares about angles and shots and things, that kind of stuff.

speaking of the whole city slash island being quirky inventors and cinema snobs, they're also all about the Pike family.

It was a really like weird aristocracy vibe that I just did, like, didn't work for me.

I wonder how much of that is from the fact that both of our main characters.

Are, well not even just the main characters, the main characters and really the secondary characters are all part of the same family.

And so we get a very skewed view, like the average person Esther and Jamie have a cousin, Mirna, who is dating a woman named

Barker.

something that started with a BI don't actually remember what the, name of her girlfriend was,

I did not catch that Barker was a woman.

yeah, Barker,

Blake, or, yeah, it starts with a b.

it starts with BI think you're right about Barker.

And in fact, I'm going to call her Barker and if that's wrong, well this is a really very minor character, so, but yes, Barker's a woman.

And so I wonder how, how much like.

Characters like Barker just don't give a shit about the pikes and like don't think about them at all.

Maybe that's not the version of this book that, or that's not the version of the city that we see in this book.

And to be fair, it is entirely in first person between Esther and Jamie.

So we are getting, you know, directly their point of view, literally, but from their descriptions, it is what was, was it Carmine?

No.

Carmen Pike.

What was grandmother?

Yeah, I think Carmen Pike.

Grand Pike.

She created the museum.

She, uh, rebuilt the town.

She put money into public artwork, arts.

She did something about the patent office, which is why it's full of inventors.

She chose the mayor.

Like, unless we have to think that the points of view that we are getting are.

Technically incorrect.

Like factually incorrect.

The whole city is still about her.

I'm, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing that she didn't have an outsized influence on the city.

She clearly did, she did all of those things, but she also has, well, she's been dead for eight years at this point when the, when the book starts.

And so like, I just wonder if any of the normal people care about her and that family at all anymore.

I have a continuation of my argument.

That's such a spoiler, so we can't talk about it yet.

But I mean, I'm sure there are people on the island who don't give a shit about the pikes, but I'm talking about like the city itself though is all about them.

Like I said, they, they have had a big influence on the city.

Yes.

I'm not disagreeing there.

And that, that's just such a weird, like landed gentry vibe.

I don't know it, I did not counteract any of my mismatch with the rest of it.

Yeah.

I think you just, you, this was not the book for you

I'm shaking my head vehemently listeners.

But if you like artsy bullshit, you'll love this book.

if you like.

Very dreamy, magical realism.

I loved this book.

It was great.

It

really just not for me.

yeah.

I, I genuinely, I think this is one of my favorite things that we've read this year.

I also felt, okay, This does not at all affect my opinion of the book.

This is just something I noticed.

It was so unfair that the summer city was in such a better situation than the Winter City.

Yeah, I, I do think that on the whole the summer city was better off.

They didn't have power generators apparently, but they had everything else.

They had food.

Yeah.

I just heard the like feedback on that.

They, they did have have much more food.

It was very hot, but like, not in the, nothing is going to grow kind of way.

So overall, if I had to choose between the two of them, I'd probably wanna live in the summer city.

It's

Hands down, like I think we're introduced to the winter city first and it's awful.

They're running out of food.

Like if you're get stuck outside, you might freeze to death.

Like it's not a safe place.

And it feels like the book is treating the two halves as equal.

Like they both have their problems and they, they both would be better off with each other, right.

Except the summer city.

I don't know.

When we went into that section, I expected it to be like, okay, there's gonna be wildfire dangers.

Like what are the other problems with summer droughts?

People might be like having issues with dehydration.

They're surrounded by an ocean.

Where are they getting drinking water?

How are they growing crops?

Right?

Because they can't import anything because the whole island is cut off from the rest of the world just because it is both versions of it.

none of that was true.

It's just fruit is ripe year round all the time.

There's plenty of fish in the ocean.

Like they're doing great.

Yeah, I, I did expect that the summer city would be more equitably full of problems in a way that is not,

Yeah.

It, they don't, it doesn't even address like heat stroke or anything, I don't think.

no, I really, the only problem that they have is they don't have power generators.

Yeah.

And like, I mean, that does suck, but that's not like life threatening.

And I, we do hear about like Esther's mom.

Complaining about the heat quite a bit.

Like it felt like her bones were melting, which yeah, that does sound uncomfortable.

It's not gonna kill you.

Yeah, we, we hear people complain about the heat, but we don't see anyone suffer any consequences from the heat.

Whereas the consequences from the cold are much more visible in the novel.

And what am I off base?

That they were sort of held up as equivalent.

Like I don't think I missed something that the point was that the summer city was much better off.

I don't think that the point was that the, the summer city was better off, but I also don't think that the point was that the summer city was equivalent.

Like, I, I think it was just that sometimes you get a split and it's not equitable.

Like it's, it's not even,

Okay.

it just, it is what it is.

Yeah,

I don't, I don't necessarily think that the.

Book was trying to imply that both of them were equally bad.

fair enough.

It sure didn't address that.

How much that sucked though.

No, it, it doesn't address the fact that they aren't equal.

But I also don't think that it was like trying to imply that they were equal.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, we kind of already talked about who should read this book, yeah, if you're looking for a whimsical, magical realism about family drama and authoritarian regimes.

Yeah.

I, I think that's It's also standalone.

So if you don't wanna read a series, I think this is a good book

I am so curious.

If you're a cinema snob, if this worked for you or not, I wanna know,

I feel like it doesn't matter if you are because it's not trying to be right and it's not trying to pretend that it's right either.

It's, it's just all fantasy.

that's fine.

But if you have a special interest and something gets your special interest wrong, it's gonna rub you the wrong way.

Well, but I'm, I'm saying that it depends on how it does it.

Maybe I'm mistaken about that.

I mean, maybe you're right that if this was book binding, I would be very mad if they got even a little bit wrong.

But

The problem is I'm not a cinema snob, so I don't know if this is true, but I could imagine someone saying.

That's so not the point.

And you holding that up as the point of filmmaking is frustrating.

Okay.

I see what you're saying.

And Yeah.

I'm not a cinema person, so I can't answer that question.

Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

I have like, maybe it's fine.

yeah.

I'm not trying to make that argument.

I'm saying I'm very curious.

right.

Yeah.

And I just was not understanding what argument specifically you were trying to make.

Yeah.

It's like if someone, and I, I can't even think of like a, a good example, I'm trying to think of a simile for knitting and I can't,

yeah.

No, no, no.

Like I, I understand what you're saying now.

Yeah.

And yeah, I'm, I don't know, maybe someone would feel that way if they do, you know, like cinema, I don't know.

Very curious.

Anyway.

Yeah, that's my question to the masses.

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The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

All right.

The reason why that this whole town is about this family, even when the town isn't trying to be about this family, is because it's the Pike Brothers that caused the schism of the seasons.

So like, everything about this island is about them.

Yes.

The, the Pike Brothers are the, the reason for everything that's happened in this book.

yeah, and I, it's a weird thing to complain about Main character Energy when it's a book that does have a main character, like that's normal.

But it wasn't just that this book was about them, it was that this entire city was about them, and that was just like, I don't think they deserved that.

They probably didn't deserve that.

Hear me out.

This book felt like a Ghibli film.

Yeah, I can see that

Yeah.

Maybe that's why I liked it.

And a Gili film definitely would be all about, you know, one family in the city.

And yeah, everything being a metaphor for them, even if they're not technically on the page in that moment.

Absolutely.

I think I would've liked this book if it was about half the length.

It felt way too long.

It dragged.

Oh, I loved, like, I thought it was a good length.

I, but I was really enjoying the very meandering kind of way that it got to it all really worked for me.

But,

See if it was a 90 minute Studio Julee film that, yeah, I would probably like that.

so what we need to do is we need to call up Miyazaki and tell him he might be retired again, I can't keep track but tell him that he needs to animate this book.

Yeah, and I, I think that is just, I have a lot more patience for things when they're shorter.

So the, the absolute like batshit elements that at this length frustrated me, I could probably wave away if it was shorter.

mean, we, we did talk about, in our last episode on the practice, the horizon and the chain.

I'm not sure if I got those in the right order.

I think I did by Sophia Samar that it's a lot easier to put up with

Quirks.

not weird experimental, quirky stuff in a shorter format.

And so I can see why the length of this book didn't work for you when you weren't enjoying it.

I, who did enjoy it, enjoyed the length of the book.

I think again, that's because I was enjoying the book.

Yeah.

And like this book, it is not that it was experimental, it was just, yeah.

Whimsical in a way that dragged for me.

Yeah.

Everything was about that miserable family.

Everything was about the family.

It's true.

I felt so bad for Theo, who is a character that shows up a tiny, tiny bit in Esther's sections.

Not that I felt so bad about him, I ultimately felt so bad about him.

But when he is first introduced, I was just like, it's kind of weird.

He's like kind of flirting with Esther and she has so much contempt for him and like it clearly wasn't gearing up to be a romance plot line or anything.

So it's not like I was going, this is a, a poorly done romance.

Right?

But

It was just reading her absolute disdain for this guy who has done nothing wrong was like, yikes.

I, I think, and I think yikes was the point.

Like, I think, I, I don't think you were supposed to think that Esther was, was I.

In the right there

Sure it was still uncomfortable to read

Sure.

But like, she's very clearly

a bitch.

a, a bitch very emotionally walled off.

Like she's not, she is, she's not empathetic in the beginning at all.

And part of her character growth is recognizing that and recognizing that Yeah.

She's actually been kind of terrible to people.

Yeah, and I'm not even saying that, like she should give him a chance.

Like it's not the romance thing.

Like I wanna make that very clear.

right.

I mean, she could have been more respectful to him as a human being.

Yeah, that's all.

Or like, if you don't like him or like spending time with him, then don't, but she clearly loved the attention from him, so it was like, ugh.

The worst,

Yeah, I mean, a, again, I, I think that was the point, but you're right that it's not always fun to read.

It just makes like, I just wanted someone in that awful family to be reasonable.

I liked Henry and I liked, well, RNA was okay.

She got better'cause we learned more about her.

Mira got better.

Yes.

But I was just like trying to hang on to anything.

But Theo, he ends up not double crossing exactly, but we find out that he's basically been spying on her.

I was like, okay, this is interesting.

This is some intrigue.

And then he gets brutally murdered

Yeah.

I mean, I still felt bad for him, but it, it felt out of place for the tone of the book.

the murder was a little jarring.

I agree.

And I think, again, I think that was a little bit the point because the person who did the murder or ordered the murder or whatever, pip is not respectful of the people on the island.

And so like, we're supposed to find it jarring.

Well, we're certainly not supposed to like pip,

yeah, we're certainly not supposed to like pip.

that just felt like a very.

Like in your face, Hey, Pip's a bad guy, just so you know,

Yeah.

be on her side and don't like, feel conflicted at all.

Yeah.

I, I do wish that that had been a little more subtle.

I think that the story would've been more effective.

And all of the other,'cause there is other violence in this book.

the grandmother is murdered but she wears a suit that's half black and half white and then gets sawed in half along the divide of her suit.

And that is what divides the seasons.

That is the most whimsical as murder in the world.

is it, is it, is it a murder?

If you specifically tell your two unhappy sons to kill you?

Okay.

I guess maybe, yeah, murder's maybe not the right word, but

Well, we, for, to be fair, for, for like 90% of the book, we do think she's been murdered.

We find out she orchestrated it

and yeah.

And then we find out that she orchestrated it and it, you do start to get the idea that maybe she orchestrated it before we learn it.

But for much of the book, we, we think it's a murder, a genuine murder.

But magical saw that also saws the city in half whimsy.

When Jamie loses his hand and it goes through the portal and Esther turns it into a literal skeleton key whimsy,

No, that's just bone room.

that's whimsy, that, that's very whimsical.

That just reminded me so much of my former place of employment.

which is in fact whimsical.

Parts of it were maybe.

And then the mayor being shot and like oozing snow and seeds that start to bloom.

Whimsy,

I would've called the whimsy earlier when it's the mayor who gets turned into the, the literal representation of winter slash summer

I mean that too, but that's not, I guess that's kind of violent.

I, I was just,

it's not violent necessarily, but I don't think the, the being shot, this is just arguing, semantics, the being shot for me at that, at that point.

That's not whimsy, that's just violence.

Because the real whimsy was when he was turned into this embodiment of the city.

I guess, but it, like the descriptions of it are very like snow is tumbling from the holes in his diving suit.

It

That's not a gory death.

Yes.

It's a, it's a whimsical death.

You, you are correct there.

And so poor Theo like having his throat slit and left in a fountain, it, it was jarring.

And it, I don't know.

I don't think you can do that on accident.

You're right.

But I don't think that means it worked.

I don't necessarily think it wholly worked but I, I didn't find it as jarring as you clearly did.

And part of it might have been what a cartoonish villain PIP was.

I mean, like I said, I, I do wish that PIP had ended up being more subtle, just as a villain.

I think it would've fit better with the, the dreamlike quality of the book.

But only pikes are allowed to be complex.

Because they're the only real people.

Speaking of the mayor though, I felt so bad for him.

He didn't deserve any of it.

No, he's just a tennis player who gets convinced to run for mayor in this random town and then has to deal with the embodiment of this weird ass curse,

Yeah.

That, that's a shit sucks.

this poor guy.

And he is wandering around.

We find out trying to, to solve what's happening, and everyone just sees him wandering around in a diving suit and is like, that's our quirky mayor.

We've undergone an apocalypse and he's decided to wear an old timey diving suit.

Yeah.

I, I kind of love how just no one is, no one questions that he is wearing this diving suit now.

No one's like, Hey man, are you okay?

But also that says really sad things about the state of his personal relationships.

If he doesn't have anyone close enough to him in this, in this town where he has been convinced to run for mayor to ask him if he's okay.

Yeah,

Maybe all of his friends died in the sundering

yeah.

Maybe,

because plenty of the population did die.

Like it's, it's not just that people are in one city or the other.

There, there are lots of people who did die in the process.

was it that they died due to the split or they died because of the lack of infrastructure after the split.

I think it's a little unclear.

I thought they had assumed a bunch of people died in the split because people went missing.

And then people then subsequently died, especially in the Winter City.

It sounded like they started finding bodies pretty early on.

But is that just'cause they were unprepared for the snow?

so like, that's why I say I think it's maybe a little unclear.

Okay.

Yeah,

Also, because it did seem like there were a lot more deaths in the winter city than the summer city, which made me think it was just a mechanical consequence.

But I mean that, that was fine.

That didn't bother me.

I mean either, either way, whether it was because of the mechanics or just because of the consequences.

Lots of people died in the suning.

Yes.

So the mayor, we say, died in his very whimsical fashion, or maybe not the most whimsical in the book, but after that moment.

Jamie says he sees seeds sprouting from the holes in the suit, and there's something along the lines of maybe he's not dead after all, but then that's not really brought up again, is it?

No, I don't think so.

And I think that's just like, know, a part of you lives on et cetera, et cetera, circle of life stuff, and not literally, the mayor is still alive.

Dang.

I liked the mayor.

I wanted him to regrow as plant a man

I did like the mayor.

that was rooting for him.

Yeah, no, the, the mayor, he turns out to be like a great guy.

Yeah, he didn't deserve any of this.

He just, he does not deserve any of this bullshit.

I mean, most of the people in the town don't deserve this bullshit.

No, I would, I would go so far as to argue that only the members of the Pike family deserve this bullshit.

Grandmother Pike murders a lot of people by having her sons split her body and therefore the city into two, like every death is on her head.

Okay.

Question.

Do you think she knew what Powell's saw would do?

I thought it was implied.

It's, I don't think so.

So she and Powell are better friends than Jamie and Esther realize, I think.

But none of the adults ever acknowledge the magical stuff that Powell's, inventions can do as far as we see, so it's kind of unclear whether or not they, you know, recognize it.

So I think it could go either way.

I didn't write a page number down for this note.

Terrible.

What was your note?

And the whole season thing is about their feud.

A whole city, about one family

Oh

because I realized on page 90 ish, oh, if Uncle Remy is the head of the doorman, that means Janan must be the head of the fenestrated,

yes.

Because everything is about them.

Okay?

But let me see if I can find where I made that comment.

Hold up your book?

Wow.

Do you have an arc?

Yes.

I have the finished, no.

Oh,

I have the finished book.

I thought we got our books at the same time.

so did I.

I, when you said you had read the quotes on the front, I was like, I mean, yeah, there are quotes eventually in the book, but like it sure wasn't on the cover.

Actually, I don't think there are quotes in mine.

Yeah,

Interesting.

I didn't realize that we had different copies.

That's wild.

it was a pretty clean arc.

Like I didn't notice anything

I actually really like the cover of this, how they did it.

Like it's, it's a really pretty cover.

Anyway, sorry, I, I had asked what you were looking for specifically.

There is a line I can picture them so clearly heaving and sweating and straining, tearing their mother and their city into

that was,

after the mare takes him to where the saw is.

No, this is, when Jan has played the glass harmonica

Oh, that could be it.

And everyone is seeing kind of like the, ghosts of the past.

it is Esther's point of view and Carmen Pike has a line, you're bleeding me dry between you, you will do the same to the city.

and this is where we see her die.

She says, when you have taken it all, you'll turn on each other.

I know you, you can't share the city you've always been boys with bricks.

One makes the wall the other knocks holes in it until it all falls down.

There is a way to avoid the shame of your schemes and destructions a way for me to protect the city.

A final, glorious story to tell in which I follow in the footsteps of the great hero of our city, the smiling knight.

What can't be shared must be divided.

She says.

So, you know, maybe, maybe she does know that it's gonna turn the city into

yeah, I just, because she says I have one last great act that makes me think that she did.

There was something going on that she knew about.

maybe, I mean, I, I don't, again, I don't necessarily think that it's clear that she knows specifically that Powell's saw Will, will turn the city into a summer city in a winter city.

But I don't think that there's clear evidence that she doesn't know either.

I interpreted that as she knew.

Yeah.

I think, yeah, it's ambiguous, but I, personally, I think that she knew and was puppeteering it.

Otherwise, what was her great big act, like last act dying?

Like what else is there for her that that could be referring to?

I mean, maybe she hopes that the act of killing her will bring them together and they will take out their frustrations on her rather than on the city.

Maybe that sure was wrong.

it doesn't work either way.

Yeah.

No, it's almost like the rift in the family is unfixable and they have to move forward and can't look at the past or something.

I don't know.

I mean, none of, none of the cousins feel the rift

No, except for, you know, the literal one,

except for the littler one.

I mean I, that definitely felt like a metaphor for when your parents are fighting and to pick sides.

Even if you don't feel any animosity for other people in the family, it makes it harder to see them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean it, I, I think you're right.

Yeah.

Well we spent a lot of time looking for that line.

Probably more time than it was worth.

Yeah.

Especially if the answer was, it was ambiguous.

We interpreted it differently.

Listeners, you were spared that many minutes of frantic page turning.

Well, overall, I know, I'm glad that I read this book.

You probably can't say the same, but

I.

My problems were all personal interest related,

yeah, which is fair.

I think.

Yeah.

If these things have sounded interesting to you that you would enjoy this book, that's maybe a dumb thing to say.

I mean, I, I think that if your reading tastes tend to align more towards mine than to Lily's, you'll probably like this book.

If you're reading tastes go in the opposite direction, maybe this isn't the book for you.

Yeah.

And even less reading tastes like the pros was good.

The first person didn't actually bother me that much.

So like that personal quirk didn't come into play.

I'm just specifically disinterested in family drama, so if you're not that person.

And yes, this is very much a book about family dynamics and drama.

I.

And a snobby aristocratic family.

Like the matriarch being the basically def facto leader of the town also rubs me the wrong way.

And there's plenty of people who love the royal family and shit like that.

So if you're one of them, yeah, go for it.

Or e even if you don't love the royal family if that bothers you less, if it's not a personal pet peeve, then you can probably just over, I don't wanna say overlook it, but it's, it's not going to be,

It wouldn't be a specific roadblock the way it was

yeah.

It's, it's not going to hinder your enjoyment the way that it did yours.

Yeah.

No, that wasn't the only person, but that That is a person.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

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Thanks again for listening, and may your villains always be defeated.

Bye.

I almost said family.

You could have said family.

I was tempted.

It would've been accurate.