Hello and welcome to Fiction Fans, a podcast where we read books and other words too.

I'm Lily.

And I'm Sarah, and even though he continues to make me read horror, I am very pleased to welcome Chris Panatier back onto the podcast to talk about his latest novel shit show.

Hi, guys.

I love my annual slash semi-annual trips onto your show, so it's great to see you again.

we love them too.

Yeah, we're so glad that you write so many books because we get so many chances to to you.

I am glad you guys are reading them.

Keep reading them.

Right.

I'm glad you keep reading them.

Well before you distract us with the conversation about this very excellent book, we do have our quick intro.

So what's something great that happened recently?

Okay, so, I have a.

I am contracted to write a 2027 book for Angry Robot.

I have a 20 26 1 that's already like all done and almost through edits and we'll do be doing the cover release soon.

And I.

My editor that I have had for all four of my books left Angry Robot and went to an imprint of Simon Schuster.

Her name is Gemma Cref Field.

I love her.

We had a great relationship, so I was naturally very scared when she left.

'cause sometimes people have projects in the pipeline, you get a new editor and they're not super enthusiastic.

But my new editor, her name's Ella Chapel and we have done like a Zoom call and.

We've talked and she's great and she's very into horror.

And the good news is that I gave her like three ideas for what the 27 book will be, which I have to now write by next September.

And then one night I came up with another idea and I was like, oh, that's what I wanna do.

And I just like dashed off a synopsis and I sent it and she responded.

She was like, yes, that's what we're doing.

So that was really excited to kind of hit that enthusiasm there and be like, okay, yeah, we're on all cylinders here.

So I just, the other ones were either written or partially written.

And this one I have to write brand new, which which is.

A bit daunting because it's actually a fairly audacious concept.

But I haven't actually written anything new in terms of books in like probably eight or nine months because I've been like editing or revising all this other stuff.

So I'm really excited to start it.

So that was, that was a bit of good news to just get the green light on that so I can jump into it.

Is that gonna be another horror novel as well?

Sadly.

Yes, Sarah, it's

I'm just, I'm mentally preparing myself.

It's fine.

It's fine.

So is the 26th one,

I, I did know that the 26th one was horror.

Yeah.

Yeah,

It's all right.

It, they come out right before spooky month, so you got your slot and Sarah is only forced to deal with horror during October.

that's right.

That's right.

I mean, having books coming out in September if you write horror is great.

Yeah, it is.

Good timing.

yeah, yeah, for sure.

What about you guys?

What could happen to you?

My good thing is that I went to a marina concert last night which was a ton of fun.

I'm a big fan of Marina.

I've been to lots of her concerts, but I would say this was one of the best that she's done.

And she played a lot of old songs in addition to her songs from the new album, so it was just a really good time.

Very cool.

That's awesome.

I haven't, I don't even think I've, have I heard any marina?

I don't know if I have.

I don't know if she is a genre that you listen to frequently?

It's very pop.

yes.

It's very pop.

Okay.

Well, I, I do sometimes listen to Taylor Swift.

I do sometimes listen to Poppy who used to be pop, but now she's metal.

What else?

That's about it.

Well check out Marina because I, I do think that her music is very good.

okay.

and if you don't like it, you can, you can blame me entirely.

That's fine.

That's fine.

My good thing is maybe silly, but I'm very triumphant.

I got some fancy sunscreen that's in like a hard sided bottle with a pump top.

As you know, it's impossible to get like the last third of any product out.

And usually I just cut the bottle open, but I couldn't because it's a hard sided like bottle.

So I figured out that if I take a chopstick, I can like scoop it out from the top.

And that's how I'm getting the last of that stupid sunscreen out.

solved the riddle.

Like that's look small victories.

Okay.

I was, I was actually like, has someone invented, someone must have invented like a bottle spatula.

Right, like with a chopstick like size, like handle, but with like a tiny little, almost like a, like a icing thing that you scoop.

but it has to be so little.

'cause the top of the bottle is very

Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

Okay, we're gonna go on Tea Moon, find you

Yeah.

No sunscreen left behind.

Right.

Hey.

Yeah.

And then you throw half of it away and it feels so bad, so.

Mm-hmm.

I can't be stopped.

That's great.

Well, you don't look sunburnt at all.

Thank you.

it, it helps that it is October in Seattle, so there is not much sun to burn.

yeah, yeah.

Right.

what is everyone drinking today?

I have sleepy time tea, even though it is in the middle of the day.

I promise I won't fall asleep.

I considered buying Fireball for this, but I, that was too much even for me.

I, I couldn't, I couldn't do it.

Sorry, Chris.

Do not apologize for that.

Fireball is.

Fireball is nuclear waste.

Yeah, that's, that's why I couldn't do it.

Yeah.

But it did, it did cross my mind.

So instead I'm drinking galley gray regeneration tea, which is some kind of like gray, and it is thematically appropriate only because you make a doctor who joke in this book.

That's right.

That's right.

I do.

I am drinking the equivalent of sleepy time tea, which is my parents half calf, half decaf coffee.

Mm.

Which might as well be sleepy time tea.

It is not, it's not doing the trick.

It's like, two o'clock here in the afternoon and I'm still groggy as hell.

Like it is not, not working, but it's in here and I'm gonna keep drinking it.

Yeah.

All of the flavor of coffee and none of the oomph.

Oh, I wouldn't even go there,

No.

Oh no.

it's rough.

I don't know what they're buying.

Is rough.

Yeah.

All right.

Well this is actually a book podcast.

Has anyone read anything good lately?

Shit show notwithstanding, because we're about talk about that at length.

Well, I am almost finished with Galloway's Gospel by Sam Rein, who's a friend of mine and a tremendously talented writer.

His debut was called Eden V that came out two years ago.

And this is not a sequel, but it's in the same universe.

He sort of has this this county in upstate New York where he actually lives, but he is got this made up county called Renfield County, and it's basically this cursed county.

And Edenvale was a story based at Edenvale College and one of the young creative writing professors and then this one, Galloway's Gospel is about this high school girl who starts to.

Sort of, you could say she's manifesting these, these just ideas that she thinks are just funny stories.

But it turns out that she's kind of been incepted with something from the county and she's predicting the future about these, The beasts of the woods, that if you offer part of yourself to them, they will, then poop out like magical poop and grow whatever you want.

And that's just to get started.

It's a very strange book, but it's, it's highly entertaining and, I would call it like cozy horror with a little touch of gore and some cosmic, but a lot of fun, great books.

So that's what I'm reading.

That sounds fantastic.

Yeah.

I have just been reading Tolkien's letters.

That's been my answer for the last, like eight or nine podcasts.

So it's not a, not a very exciting answer.

But I am still slowly doing that, not.

That's a

his letters that like that he like his correspondence.

Yeah.

So, a revised edition came out I wanna say last year.

The original edition of his letters was from the eighties or something.

And this is revised and expanded, so some of the letters that were previously published you get larger extracts and then there are some letters that are new that were unpublished previously.

So it's, it's been interesting.

Oh, cool.

Okay.

Neat.

That's really cool.

Have you read the previous version?

Yes.

Yeah.

But it's been a couple of years, so

Well, that's better than my answer, which is no, it, we're on a podcast sprint right now.

I think I read three books this week for the podcast,

it's been a lot.

been a lot.

I.

But one of those was shit show.

Is this technically a novella?

It felt like it went by very quickly.

It is technically a novel'cause it's just over sort of the 40,000 word cutoff, so it's like 43,000.

So it's, it's a nice little bite-sized nugget.

You know, it's a very short novel.

We actually.

I think the edits put it over.

It was probably just sitting right at 40,000, so it was gonna be, it had been intended as a develop, but now it's just a short little novel.

Well, it's great.

I mean, I sat down and read it in one sitting which was really a, a delightful afternoon.

'cause I, I like a story that you can get like the full breadth of at once.

It's a definitely a different reading experience from getting it in chunks.

Yeah.

I like having a shorter one out there.

My stuff tends to be.

Not overly long, but solid.

Like, you know, 80, 90,000 words, you know, about 400 pages.

So doing something that comes in, you know, whatever.

This is 1 75 or 180 is, is nice.

I think the copy that we have, the advanced copy is 200 pages, almost exactly 201.

Okay, perfect.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we would probably officially label this book as goopy horror.

I don't, I don't know if you have a different designation.

I think horror probably is, is the proper genre, but

Yeah.

if you disagree.

Yeah.

I, no, I like that.

I like that.

You know, that's probably a nice sub genre to put, put this one in.

It's, yeah.

It's kind of go horror.

Yeah.

I do try to emphasize to people, I'm like, okay, it's called shit show.

There is a porta potty on the front, but it's, it the, there's not a lot of poo.

Like there's a, you, there's a modicum of poo.

You have to have to like, you know, to make it make sense and make it realistic, but there's not, it's not very POH forward.

Okay.

there's not actually a lot of human waste.

The, the goopiness comes in, in, in other ways.

Yeah.

It's sort of an echo plasm sort of situation.

Yeah.

So as, as you mentioned, the Porta-potty in the afterwards of this book, you say that the idea for this book came from the phrase portal potty.

Can you tell us a little bit about how it evolved from there, and then how you decided to incorporate Carnival Themes on top of that?

Yeah, good question.

I was riding my bike.

I saw a porta-potty and I, and I literally,'cause I'm always just like.

Playing with words and phrases in my head.

So naturally I was just like, portal potty.

And I was like, okay, that's, that sounds fun.

What's the story, right?

And how do I come up with a story that doesn't just have a gimmick, but actually how do I make it holistic?

How do I make the idea of toilets or portal potties or whatever, and.

And I guess human sewage, that into a, into a fun, unified story.

And I played with some ideas of, okay, well where do you see porta Porta-potties?

Well, you've got, you've got concerts.

The marina concert I'm sure they had some

it, it was actually at a theater, so they didn't, they had, they had proper toilets,

sorry.

I'm sorry.

I mean, that's why she's still here.

She didn't

Yeah.

At the shows I go to, there are porta-potties.

So, I, I actually played with the idea of doing like, do I make this a haunted band, right?

Do I do a haunted band?

and that certainly could have happened, but the reason I went with Carnival as I wanted it to be a distinctly.

Fall time, autumn, Halloween Reed.

And that brought me straight to Carnivals, county fairs, pumpkin patch rides, which all of which are referenced in the story.

'cause I kind of wanted to hit all of those.

And, and also it ties in nicely because carnivals, anything with those types of rides, especially like transient carnivals like that pop up in a parking lot or whatever at the Kmart.

There's a element already an element of mystery and fear and danger when you you know, decide to exchange your money for a ticket to one of those places.

And, when you think about them, to the extent, you know, you grew up and went as a kid to any of those places, nighttime at a twinkling, noisy funnel, cake smelling carnival, just, I don't know, for me, it's just hardwired in my head and I just love that idea.

Probably more than I love the, I actually going right.

But I just love the sort of nostalgia of that, and I think I, I don't think I'm alone in that.

So that kind of put, let's do a dark carnival over the edge.

So you've kind of touched on this a little bit but for our listeners who are unfamiliar with the book, can you give a, an elevator pitch for it?

Yeah, sure.

Well, I have, I have two, the short, short elevator pitch, literally like doors closing, like the, you know, the ERs on the other side, the doors are closing and you say it's a latrine technician versus a dark carnival.

Right.

And that, that's the, that's the quick, like doors are shutting in your face, the sort of.

The one that gives you a little bit more of an understanding is this story is about Sunday McCarter.

He's a 50 plus year old fellow who lives with his mom in his trailer.

She is suffering from dementia and he takes care of her.

He needs a job of flexible hours and a company vehicle.

So he gets a job at the local sanitation company where he maintains porta-potties and everything's going fine until, you know, autumn comes along.

County p season starts and people start going missing, and bodies parts start being found in the porta-potties that he is charged with cleaning and it all, it all goes downhill from there.

So that's the, that's sort of the longer bitch.

That's definitely not something you want to find in, in your porta-potty.

No, no.

You don't wanna find what he finds.

So I have all of the experience of having served on a jury.

But I don't think the way chain of command is described to Sunday is how it really works.

Oh, chain of the chain of custody.

of custody.

Yeah.

For, for evidence, because obviously, you know, the porta-potties are part of the investigation as he's finding body parts.

You are an actual real lawyer and you probably know more than I do about this.

Did your career inform any of the law enforcement interactions in this book?

J only, only obliquely.

I mean basic.

What more informed kind of what goes on between the cop and Sunday Is sort of an understanding how small towns work more, more so than, oh, here's the letter of the law that these guys would, would follow.

You know, can a cop deputize someone to hold onto evidence?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

Okay.

sure.

There are, there are definitely ways to store evidence outside the evidence locker at a police station.

Mm-hmm.

Would, would it be done like this?

I, you know, who knows?

Maybe in Glen Rose it would, where, where Sunday lives.

Right.

You know, and I, I was just sort of thinking, you know, this cop, clearly is not trying to, you know, solve the world's problems.

he just wants it outta his, off his desk.

So it was more about sort of how would a small town cop maybe handle this?

That was, that was really it.

You know, I deputize him to keep that porta-potty as far away from the police department as possible.

Yeah.

Speaking of small towns, this is the first of your works that we've read that takes place in Texas which is your home state.

Mm-hmm.

Did your writing process change at all since this is a little closer to home than perhaps the phlebotomist, which is a dystopian future?

Right.

Well, I, I, I guess perhaps a little bit there was a mood I wanted to capture and, you know, having been to many of these small towns that, that I kind of feature in the book, there's a feeling and there's a there's a way that people are in a lot of these places that I sort of wanted to capture and I wanted to capture.

Some of the interactions that I've had where you are often, and, and a lot of this was in my job where in my job, representing people who got sick as a result of their exposure to toxins in the workplace.

These are blue collar people that have worked their whole lives and are now sick, and I have been in many, many small, tiny.

Houses.

I've been in many, many mobile home parks.

I have sat there with these people and always walked away basically going, wow, Chris, you're a piece of shit.

Because, because you think you have problems, right?

And, and these people, I'm sitting in their living rooms and they can't be more hospitable, more kind and they have nothing close to the privilege I have.

So.

So a lot of this was sort of just a nod to those types of people.

And they're embodied in one poppy, miss Poppy pretty much and a few of the other neighbors that you kind of meet.

But I was just trying to capture that feeling of, of a true neighborly, like, these people will help you if you need, if you need help despite what's going on in their lives.

I have picked up, I'm not a native Texan, but in the 20 plus years I've been here, I definitely have picked up the parlance.

So I just took the parlance, which is subtle, and I just turned it up to 12, you know.

so we have some, I hammed it up a little bit.

Yeah.

There are some var,

Vermin for

They show up.

Yep.

So our hero Sunday has to, go to deal with a kind of like a, you call it a Twilight Fair, I believe in, in the novel which is a very unpleasant carnival basically.

And one of the attractions mentioned on page 69 is the scribe of Hades.

And I couldn't help but notice that that's your social media handle, at least on Blue Sky.

Do you have a head cannon for how you got eaten?

By a porta potty?

No, that was, that was truly, I'm, I'm sitting here.

I'm like, I'm like giving you a golf clap.

That was just, that was just a little, I guess Easter egg, right?

Scribe of Hades is the title of a, poster that I drew for a, a band in Sweden like 10 years ago.

And because I keep the license, I keep the copyright for all my art.

I have used that little image.

It's like a, skull with like twirly hair and a little, and a feather quill pen.

I was like, I like that as my sort of like trademark logo and so.

When I went onto Blue Sky, I was like, I'm gonna be scribe of Hades on here.

And so yeah, so as I was just sitting there like bullshitting names and trying to come up with names for rides, I was like, scribe of Hades sounds appropriate for this Twilight Fair.

So I'm just gonna throw that in there.

So I, I, well done.

I'm so glad you picked up on that.

That was really cool.

I'm not there yet.

We'll see, we'll see where I end up.

Did you have a lot of fun coming up with all of these like horrifying carnival rides?

Oh my gosh, that was so much fun.

It was, it was a ton of fun.

And, and I kept going, are these weird?

And, and awful enough.

And I would, in my revisions, I would make them worse and worse and worse.

'cause I was like, okay, this is like, hmm, that's kind of bad, but what if I made it all out of cheese grater, you know, that's.

That's, that's pretty good.

I think so.

Yeah.

It was a ton of fun.

And coming up with the names, because I wanted the names to be evocative to where I, you don't even have to have the ride described to you, but you know, I think there's one in there called like the Flammable Child or something like that.

And like, you don't even have to know what that is.

It's, it sounds awful.

How do we know it's in flammable?

Especially given the background, we hear about the original carnival Director.

yeah, the, the what, what is he, what is he called?

The boss or the,

Ring ringleader.

Ringmaster.

Yeah.

The CEO of the fair, I dunno.

Yeah.

But yeah.

Yeah.

But his history with freak shows, et cetera, brings some questions to mind.

Yeah.

None of it is good.

None of the answers are good.

It's not a carnival that I particularly have any interest in.

Attending.

No, no, of course not.

Good.

That's good.

Those are good instincts.

Sarah.

Yeah.

I mean, it, it was really tempting, but

I don't know.

Those funnel takes.

Sounded good, man.

yeah,

I don't know.

I don't know.

Well, before we get into our spoilery conversation, I have one final question, which is, who should read this book?

Maybe not.

If you have a weak constitution.

Yes, there, there is a little bit of goop.

But if you enjoy horror and want something very appropriate for the spooky season I think this is, this is great.

And even though we haven't touched much on this aspect yet, but there is a very like human element to it.

And very.

like personal threat of horror, that's not,

between the characters are moving.

Yeah.

That has nothing to do with the goop.

There's, there's horror, horror in this book that has nothing to do with the goop.

That's a very real world kind of thing.

A friend of mine, a friend of mine read it.

Her name is Ricky Goodwin, and she's, she's an author too.

And she, she like left a review.

I hadn't, I hadn't asked her to blurb or anything.

She left a review and I, and I was like, can I like put this on like a little graphic and shout it out?

And she was like, yeah.

And all it was, was she said, I, I didn't expect a story about a haunted toilet to make me cry.

I was like, that's it, that's, that's shit show.

You know?

I want people to know it's not just, it's not just poop jokes, you know, there's only a handful of those, but it's, it's really about this, this relationship between you know, a adult son and his elderly mother.

Yeah, and we will talk more about that in the spoiler section.

Let's get over there.

Let's go.

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The remainder of this episode contains spoilers.

Whoa, whoa.

Are we in the Twilight Fair now?

Yeah.

Yes, but hopefully a little bit of a nicer one.

Did you just flush us into the spoiler section?

I like to think it was a slightly more pleasant experience.

is, this is the one after Regina has taken over.

Yeah.

yes, yes.

This is the nice toilet.

Yes.

Yes.

But for me, I have to say that I thought that the dementia.

Storyline was really almost the true horror of this novel.

It, it hit very close to home for me because my grandmother had dementia for a long time.

And so I went through that progression that that Sunday is kind of starting to, to go through.

And it was real in a way that the portal potties, although fun you know, obviously are, are not.

The torture.

Carnival rides were almost refreshing at that point.

I was like, all right, some goopy horror, some skin flying off.

Awesome.

That's not stressful at all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it's funny, it's funny to say this, but like, I wanted to, and my editor really wanted to have this feel very grounded in the core emotional, you know, Heartwood of the story is Sunday and his mother, and so regardless of the setting that we've put them in.

We always wanted to feel that.

And you know, you feel that hopefully when they are together in the trailer and you know, she's got her post-it notes up and trying to remind her who she is and who he is.

and then even, you know, once they go to the Twilight Fair and she has this sort of.

the Twilight Fair offers her this sort of enlightenment where she can actually understand what's happening to her and remember things and it becomes addictive for her.

And it's Sunday battling with his own mother because he doesn't want her to be there, obviously, but she sort of does.

And I, we just wanted all of that to be fairly agonizing, you know, really, really pull at the emotional core of the story.

Yeah, I mean it's, it's heartbreaking to, feel what, what Sunday is going through.

And to feel what she's going through too.

And I think that really comes through on the page.

Well, thank you.

It got to a point, there was a half second where I wondered how much of the supernatural element was in Sunday's mind.

That didn't last very long, but like there was a very quick escalation.

It felt from, I think when he melts the stuffed rabbit from that point on, it goes like.

From zero to 60 very fast.

And I was like, whoa.

But it, it, I mean, it, it became very obvious in the book that it wasn't in his mind, that wasn't like, is this all a dream?

But just having those two very different plot lines, like with the, the, the sentimental horror, what I'm gonna call it.

And then just with the very external horror, it was an interesting like play back and forth.

Oh, thanks.

Yeah.

Well, you, you know, you, you quickly realize it it puts you in the state of mind that he's in, which is, if you're in that situation.

It doesn't really matter how awful or terrible or daunting the external whore is.

the personal horror is much more, much more of a motivator.

So it didn't matter that he had to go, you know, scuba diving into, the underworld, through a shitter right.

That, that was, that was just like, okay, what, what do I have to do next?

To solve this much bigger problem.

So it's, it's interesting because it makes all that stuff feel, like you said almost, you're down in the carnival rides and it's all awful.

Almost as like, whew, I can, I can relax a little bit.

You know?

There, sure, there's people being shredded to pieces in this ride over here, but that's actually kind of a little bit of relief, right?

The actual like tension in the story.

There's more tension in the story when he is like.

How do I figure this out?

and he is like going to Walmart, trying to buy, trying to buy what he calls tracers to, you know, to put down these porta-potties and, and find his mother.

There's much more that's more stressful to him than, you know, having to confront this Twilight Fair.

and it's also like obviously, she doesn't just wander away.

She goes into this alternate dimension, but like wandering is a thing that people with dementia do.

And so that, Yeah.

It, it felt very real world scary.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Even, with the place, even though the place she goes is not real world, right?

So it's.

But, that was just a nod to this.

This is something we know happens,

I, yeah.

Yeah.

There are two people that Sunday tells about the torture carn, the the Twilight Fair.

And they both believe him right away, which I quite loved.

Which I, I'm thinking of Ms.

Poppy and Gabby, although I suppose the cop does believe him in his own way.

He doesn't get this praise that I'm about to give.

We found that that was a really fun inversion of the expectation that no one believes the main character.

When supernatural events start to occur,

Yeah.

Well, you know, I think that that like Ms.

Poppy is just, she's there for him, right?

And they obviously already have a long history of trusting each other.

So she's there for it.

If he, if he says, this is what happened, she's there for it.

I mean, look, she's, she's already, well, lubed on Fireball.

She's probably, she's probably willing to just go with it, you know?

But she's just one of those people that's like, yeah, if you say this is what we have to do and this is what happened, then.

I'm here for you.

and then Gabby, I mean, that's a true friend.

Like, think about it, you know, often what I do when I'm thinking about a character's reaction is I envision, like in that case, my own friend, like who's my best friend coming to me and telling me this happened?

I think I would believe them.

I really do.

As crazy as it is based on the relationship I have with that person.

If they Deadass told me like, this happened, you have to help me.

I'm like, okay, let's go.

Whatever it is.

And then Gabby, of course, Gabby believes him, but then again, Gabby knows something of the history, like she already has her toe in the supernatural, right?

So of course she's like, oh, this is.

This is actually something I know about.

Which again, I thought was kind of a cool inversion.

'cause I was like, I need, I, I need someone else in the story.

I wanted to of course have a teen, you know, as far as far as Sunday is concerned, anyone under 25 as a teen.

Right?

And because again, the story is of that vein.

It starts with some teens.

I wanted to kind of like.

I think sometimes in a story like this, they're sort of the lifeblood of the story and I have this older main character, and so I wanted to give a nod to that and I wanted her to be the wellspring of information.

he didn't go to the library and there wasn't a research montage.

Right.

I, I wanted a younger person to sort of be the brains.

And he's just like, I'm gonna do whatever I have to do.

But I wanted her to kind of be the guide and also be a little bit like she's kind of also in it for herself'cause she's got this issue she's dealing with.

So I just thought that those motivations sort of crossing paths was super fun.

She saw a way out of her problem while also being able to help him and maybe not telling the whole truth about everything that was going on.

So that felt believable to me.

I really did expect, even though she was lying about she had to be the one to to, to beat Kagan.

when it was revealed that she had lied about it, I was still expecting it to happen.

I think probably because I've watched too much Supernatural, where they usually do have like, you know, you, you do need that familial link.

So that was another fun inversion where.

It's the, the item that she brings this little pocket watch rather than than her, that is, that Kagan is looking for.

Yeah, it was just a slight, like pivoting of our usual expectations, right?

Usually it's like, oh, the person with the curse, they have to break the curse because that makes a very intuitive sense to us.

And and I was like, no, I, I can just, I can just pivot off that a little bit and have it be this possession.

Coming in back into the Twilight Fair, which allows him to get out.

But she's the one that delivers it.

And so, so she, you know, she has found a way to get in.

We've kind of tricked the reader a little bit into thinking they know what they're getting and it's a nice little pivot that doesn't mess things up and I think adds fun to it by the reader going, oh, like.

I didn't get what I expected and it was, and it still worked.

I like doing stuff like that.

It also tells us a lot about Gabby.

She's, you know, the, the younger person who is going to misrepresent the situation in order to get what she wants, which is to go along on this adventure.

that was very telling.

When she comes clean about that, I was like, okay.

Yeah.

Right.

And of course she comes clean fairly quick when, when shit all starts to hit the fan down below and she's like, I, I might have fucked up.

I mean, props to her for realizing that she got in over her head.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

again, I thought and maybe a lot of this was, is, is my kind of pushback you guys bring up, like the superhero films.

The, the pushback against this perfect protagonist or this perfect character, that they're gonna do everything right and make all the right things, and they're the chosen one in all of this.

I kind of want to be like, no, let's make this a, this is called shit show.

It needs to be more.

More unpredictable.

It needs to be more of a shit show.

So I didn't want it to be super formulaic.

I probably went through that debate as I was writing Gabby about whether I was gonna make it sort of a, she's the one that has to do it.

And I was like, no, no, no.

We're gonna do something like that.

But not exactly that.

No, I, I like it because it feels very ordinary.

I mean that in a complimentary way, like.

I, I, I take it that way.

Yeah.

Like it, it just, these are ordinary people just doing stuff, not always the right stuff.

Rather than any kind of destiny or, or, you know, bigger cosmic plan.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

There's a, a big bad that they have to deal with and, and handling.

It might be a little more nuts and bolts than.

Reading a poem out of a ancient to

Yeah.

Yeah.

It might be as simple as shoving laffy taffy up its ass.

Yeah.

You, you mentioned the teenagers at the beginning and I loved the classic opening sequence of the two teens fooling around, getting got by the monster.

Like that's, that just felt very, you mentioned the nostalgia of carnivals and I, I felt like that fit in very well.

Thanks so much that I did not know what the rest of the book was gonna be when I wrote that opening.

I, you know, I generally, I don't really outline, but I will sit there and like let something soak for a long time in my head and then eventually my brain goes, you gotta start writing right now.

So I sat down and I wrote that prologue in one quick sitting.

And I was like, okay, that's the right opener.

And then I was like, again, to sort of pivot, I was, I was paying my respects to the teens of old, right?

But then I was like, what, what story have we not seen?

Well, the natural protagonist here is not those two teams.

That's what you would think.

Who gets sucked down there and then we see them wherever they are.

They have to battle their way out.

No, it's the guy maintaining the porta potties.

Like let's, let's have him be, you know, the center of this story and how would that look and that allowed it to ha have that, that little bit more mature nature with that, to confront what he's dealing with, and then we solve the teens problems later on.

But that's, you know, it allowed a different type of story, a totally different type of story than we're, we're trapped here.

How do we get out?

This was sort of the reverse.

It was like, how do we get in and then get out?

You do still wanna get out,

Yeah, you do.

You mentioned that you don't outline while you were writing this book, were there any scenes or elements that surprised you?

The answer to that is, is yes.

I, I remember, I remember really kind of, it was a breakthrough when I was like, oh, I think I'm gonna have them triangulate like a center.

A center shitter that is, that happens to be in Dublin, Texas, and based on how these people are being abducted from all these other faires and counties and all that.

And I think the thing that really gave it a lot of flesh was as I was going to Dublin, I was on Google Maps and I was doing street view.

Because I have now, I've been all over like Central and West Texas, which is where this is.

I, I think I've driven through Dublin one, two times, but it was a while ago and I didn't recall exactly what was there and I wanted to give the reader a feel for what this town feels like as you're driving in.

So I was in on Google Street View and I was going down the street.

I was looking to the side and I saw the, there was a vape shop, which I put in the, which I put in the story.

I changed the name, but I put the vape and then I had the idea, I think I saw something like, you know, a historical society or something like that.

I was like, oh my God.

I was like, I have to do that.

I have to do like one of those small town museums that is probably.

Half true and half myth about the town, right?

You, you can never like totally trust those places.

And I was like, oh, that, that sounds really appropriate for this story.

So I got a huge kick out of fleshing that whole part of it out.

And then of course that gave me Gabby too.

So that was, that was really cool.

But that was a total accident.

That was just as I was looking at the street view and I saw one of those places and I was like, oh, that is perfect for the story.

So happy accident.

Un unrelated to, well related to the book, but unrelated to, to what you have just been saying.

Every time you use the word fleshing out, I just think of the Skinner.

Yeah, man, the Skinner, it's rough.

It's rough.

I apologize on behalf of myself and the publisher for that, but but that's, that's what you're always gonna think from now on.

I can't look, I've always had a a, an aversion to cheese graters.

I will use them.

I don't like it.

I don't claim to like it because I always think about knuckling myself through there.

So this was just me confronting my own fears.

Really?

Yeah.

Has it, has it worked?

no, I don't think so.

But back, back to, well, I guess this, this was still book related, but a, a little more on topic.

Would you say that the book has a happy ending?

I would, yeah.

Because, because to end.

Regina's story, any other way that doesn't end like dementia ends a magical cure or something like that, deeply unsatisfying.

That would be deeply unsatisfying.

So in order for her to continue on in the way she does, there has to be a sacrifice, right?

It was never going to, it was never going.

I didn't know how it was gonna end, but it was never gonna end with, oh, now she's cured.

That to me rings hollow, and I think that does a disservice to the fact that I've just had a character with dementia in the book for 200 pages now on the last one, we're gonna cure her.

That's, that would rub me the wrong way as a reader, I think.

So I ended it how it had to end like she has to kind of die.

Right.

And not be on this earth anymore, but she can go, she can continue on in the place that kind of paused her dementia.

So there's a big sacrifice, there's a cost to it which is what makes it work.

Because if there were no cost and it was just a purely happy ending we, we can, we can watch a Hallmark movie anytime.

You know, that is not what I'm setting out to do.

So you have the huge cost to both her and to Sunday, but then she kind of gets to obtain this alternative role in that world now that Kagan is gone and, it, I think, leaves open just a little bit of hope in some way, like a vague hope that.

Maybe, you know, maybe there is something better after.

I don't particularly believe in the afterlife, but maybe there's something else.

And I think just in the act of recognizing the suffering of people with dementia, it it gives them some.

Some res genuine respect.

And maybe for people who are dealing with loved ones who have dementia, they could see that recognition and it can just make it, make them breathe a little easier.

Just like, Hey, someone else is thinking about this.

And empathizing with this situation, which never ends well.

So that's really all that was, that was a, a nod.

The, the little prologue.

With the, the brand new character you've never seen, who's suffering from it and confronting in a page and a half really what she's dealing with and the decisions that she's thinking about making.

And then having Regina show up out of her toilet.

I mean, who, who knew that that could be such a touching scene, right?

But that, that just felt like the right way to end it.

I, I'd say there's more than a little hope.

In that ending, I mean, we get the implication that she's in charge of the carnival now, right?

She's the queen of the carnival.

She's, she's,

and I imagine there's less cheese graters in her version.

that's exactly right.

I, I was trying, you know, I I made her a gardener throughout the whole book.

she loves her flowers and everything.

And so then I, I just kind of paid a nod to that at the end with, you know, all the vines and beautiful flowers growing out of the, the toilet in the in the nursing home.

Yeah, so, so it looks way different now that she's in charge.

And I just love that she's in charge.

Like she, even throughout the whole thing, even as she's suffering, like she's single-minded, even if she's making a mistake.

Or if she's making the right decision.

I like that.

You're like, whatever she's doing down there, she's, she's doing it.

No one is stopping her from doing it, and it's probably good.

Well, is is there anything specific you would like readers to take away from this book, or have we covered it with that?

Happy ending.

I, I mean, I think, I think we've covered it.

It's more about what I want readers to have going into this book because look I've said, I've said in other interviews and stuff that like people make certain assumptions when they pick up a book with a porta potty on the front.

It's called Shit Show.

A lot of them are gonna assume, oh, I'm getting just pure cotton candy.

I'm getting some hollow fun, whatever.

And, and I hope I delivered on some of that hollow fun.

Everybody needs a cheap laugh and there's plenty of those in here.

But if, if I read a book, a humorous book for laughs, at some point there's gotta be something.

So what I want people to appreciate going in is, is you're going to get much more from this book than just a running joke, right?

And it may surprise you and it may hit you harder than you think it's gonna hit you, but that's, that's kind of what I had hoped.

So it's really expectations going in.

I don't want people to just pass up this book'cause they think it's just, oh, it's just gonna be running poop jokes.

Actually, are there even any poop jokes?

I don't think there's a poop joke in it, to be totally

No, I don't, I don't think there, there is.

A one.

So maybe I messed up.

I know.

missed opportunity there.

But yeah, I, I would definitely not, like, there are some books that I consider popcorn books, which is like what you were saying, kind of, surface level enjoyable, but not that deep.

And this is definitely not one of those, like, it does have that emotional.

Through line that that is really hard.

And, and very real that keeps it grounded even when there is the cheese graters.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

I, I, I'm glad I hit you that way.

Yeah.

Well, you hinted at this a little bit, but what can you tell us about your upcoming projects?

Well, the very next thing is a it's a horror fantasy, and this is a book I wrote three times before I really got it right, and it is called Day Tide.

So like DAY.

It is coming out from Rapture Publishing in February of 2026.

This is different than everything else I've ever published because it's just a limited deluxe edition book.

So it's, there's 350 copies and that's it.

It's, so, it's like hardcover dust jacket.

It's a foil stamped, fabric bound book.

I did all the illustrations, so I did the cover, I did the design of the foil stamp.

I have done maps, end papers, lots of illustrations throughout.

So it's, it's certainly the most that I can think I will ever do for one book because I do illustrate for other people and I do, you know, for different.

Places, whether it's covers or interiors, but never to this extent.

And the only reason this one is so much is'cause it's my own book.

So it's just like chock full of stuff.

And that one is, I wouldn't even try to describe what that is.

It's.

One of those books that you just have to kind of read it, but the elevator pitch, the door slamming in my face elevator pitch isn't even a pitch.

It's more of just a description.

It's like, we're calling it Black Metal Wizard of Oz.

So that is the, that is the pitch for day Tide that comes out in February, and you can get that@rapturepublishing.com.

And then.

I know you said that it's going to be a very limited edition for print.

Do you have any plans of releasing an ebook of it?

not immediately because the whole sort of, the whole point of the limited editions is they're like, we want to be the only thing,'cause we wanna be able to sell this now.

There will eventually be a audio book.

That will be released after that.

And I'll put that on on my social media and everything.

So there will be an audio book and then basically the way these limited editions work is I get my rights back after a year or they sell out whichever is sooner.

So they've got what they want once they sell all the books, and then I can take that to any other publisher and do a trade edition.

You know, which would just be, you know, probably a, probably a soft cover, you know,$20 book as opposed to, you know, a$65 deluxe like edition type book.

And so we'll see what happens.

A lot of that will be determined by the response to daytime as it's coming out from Rapture.

So there will be other ways to get it probably.

But not in this form.

In this form.

This is it.

And then next September is my fourth book from angry Robot, and that is called Worry Box.

And that is about a family that moves into a new house.

They have a foster daughter who suffers from extremely violent, intrusive thoughts.

And my goal in writing that story was to see if I could write a horror novel where every character is good and see if things can still go really, really bad.

So that is Worry Box.

The answer is yes, I did.

And so that's worry.

I am worried already.

Yeah.

and then I have a 27 book coming out from Angry Robot, which we, they just green lit and I really can't say anything about that one yet.

We'll release some stuff when we know a little bit more.

The main thing I can't say anything about it is I, I barely know the premise myself and I actually have to write it and figure out what this thing is.

So I'm gonna sit down with my pants on fire and, and see where it goes.

But I do really like the premise.

I'll just say it's a, it's a demon book.

Look, that's all I'll say.

Yeah.

Well, I am excited for all of these.

Excited, but also scared because

Like usual.

That's great.

That's right where we want you.

Yes.

But I do love your book, so I will continue reading them even though they're horror and horror is not my genre.

I appreciate it very much.

But where can you be found on the internet so that our listeners can follow you and find out more information when more information is released?

Sure I'm on Blue Sky at Scribe of Hades.

I am at chrispanatier.com.

My Instagram is Chris Panatier, and I think I'm on TikTok as Chris Panatier until I have to delete TikTok.

So.

Like, who knows?

I'm, I'm sort of, I'm sort of rooting for the dead internet theory, so we could just go back to like horse-drawn carriages and writing each other wax sealed letters.

But we'll see.

We'll see what happens.

You know, maybe, maybe the next time we chat it'll be over like cups and string.

Yeah.

mean, that does make podcast distribution a little difficult.

It does, it

Mailing CDs to everyone

Yeah.

Podcast by cd,

yeah,

we might be headed that direction in terms of like people being able to keep their physical media right?

Like if you wanna watch something, you should be able to just stream it.

I'll find it, and then they just pull it down.

So it's like, now I have to go pull out my DVDs of Gilmore Girls if I wanna watch that.

You know,

Mm-hmm.

not that I'm watching Gilmore Girls, I would never, but I do like a good Gilmore Girls, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

This was a wonderful book and we love talking to you about your writing always, and it sounds like we've got a lot more to look forward to.

So I'm excited.

I hope so.

I love chatting with you guys.

Always.

You guys are the best.

We have so much fun.

Yeah.

Thank you for coming on.

You bet.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Fiction Fans.

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