Hi.

I'm Laura Vanderkamp.

I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer and course creator.

We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

Welcome to best of both worlds.

Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.

Term career goals.

We want you to get the most out of life.

Welcome the best of both worlds.

This is Laura.

This episode is airing in mid September of twenty twenty five.

I'm going to be interviewing Alyssa Black Campbell, who's the author of Big Kids, Bigger Feelings about life with kids in the elementary school years.

She runs an organization called Seed and Sow, which is devoted to raising emotionally intelligent children, which is certainly something I think we are all interested in doing.

What it is fascinating Sarah and I were talking about this.

We are starting to age out of the elementary school years as parents, although we do still have two our two little people who were born in the course of this podcast existing Henry is five, and a half and is starting kindergarten this year.

And Genevieve is seven, right.

Sarah, Yes, she is seven and she's in second grade this year.

Yeah, I think about this.

I will have had an elementary school aged child from twenty twelve to twenty thirty.

That is just quite the span.

It is quite the span, but we are definitely on the back half of it at this point.

So that's sort of no bat, there's always been someone in elementary school that's amazing.

Yeah, it kind of is.

But well, what are you excited about?

Was second grade this year?

I mean, what's on the docket for second grade?

Yeah, I feel like Genevieve's gonna maybe like find her like thing.

I mean, I'm very excited.

She can read well now, which is great.

I think she's interested in maybe doing some singing, and I've always been excited to have somebody in my family sing since things to sing, so that's.

Kind of fun.

Yeah.

I just feel like she's coming into her own in terms of like before when you're little, you're just sort of doing things to try things, and now not that she's like committing to some path for life, but maybe finding things that she's more passionate about and maybe eliminating some things that she's less passionate about.

We'll see.

Yeah, absolutely, no, I can't wait for Henry to learn to read.

I think it's highly likely it will happen in the course of the year, just from my sort of judgment of where he is currently on his letter and word recognition and his interest in it.

He really enjoys being read to.

He and I have been working through the Magic Tree House books, which is fun because we pretty much own the whole set from Jasper was really into it back in twenty twelve.

So we are reading through those all again, although some have mysteriously gone missing.

That's slightly annoying that I'll like, have eleven in a row and then number twelve.

Is gone eBay Amazon, Yeah, you're got are hoping.

Out with those?

Yeah?

Yeah.

And then we have a new series that we are reading that I can highly recommend for people who have either young readers or children who enjoy being read to, which is called The Dragon Masters.

So some people who had kids this age had recommended those to me, and I'll pass that along because I also think they're really well done.

I think, especially if you have somebody who's like a kindergartner or first grader who is reading pretty fluently but not quite at like Harry Potter level or whatever.

They're still exciting and they're magical and they're about eight year old kids doing heroic things, and so we've really enjoyed reading through those.

I think we're a book like sixteen in the series now.

And then Michael's reading all the Roald Dahl books.

Oh those are fun.

Yeah, Danevieve is just stuck in Diary of a Wimpy Kid lamb.

But later they really do absorb her.

I mean she'll sit on the couch for like hours and it's the cutest thing.

Yeah, that one of my children was talking to me about Ronald Dahl and I realized, yeah, rolled is.

A funny name.

And I'm sure that in their minds they just substituted the end because it looked like a typo and that's what they've been calling him.

Right.

I don't think that kid is the first one to make that mistake, ye, exactly exactly.

We're also starting music this fall.

He's going to be doing the junior choristers at church and I just signed him up for piano lessons, so that's exciting.

We actually have the person who's gonna be teaching him is the same person who teaches sam alto saxon both saxophone and piano.

So that's exciting.

That's great.

Yeah.

Well, anyway, we're gonna you have our episode here with Alyssa Black Campbell talking about big kids and bigger feelings.

Well, Sarah and I.

Are delighted to welcome Alyssa Blast Campbell to the show.

So, Melissa, why don't you say hello to our listeners.

Hello, I'm jazz to be here with you.

Yeah, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Sure?

Yeah, I'm a mom of two humans.

We live in Burlington, Vermont.

I have a little boy and a little girl who could not be more different from each other.

It's fine.

In addition to the parenting journey in too, have like two very different humans.

And I grew up in Western New York.

I have a master's degree in Early childhood ED and I did research in building emotional intelligence and kids.

And now I have the privilege of sharing that information with the world.

Yeah, how old are your kids now?

My daughter's a year and a half and my son is four and a half.

Okay, so still a little guys, Yeah, a little one at this point.

Yeah.

Well, so I guess that raises the obvious question.

In your new book, you've been tackling the elementary years.

What led you to that topic.

Yeah, we do the bulk of our work at Seed and so I founded Seed and So to share this work of raising mostly intelligent humans.

The bulk of our work is in elementary schools.

So we're doing this with teachers and families in the day to day at work.

And after I published Tiny Humans, Big Emotions, which is my first book, we got so many comments from folks who were like, this is so helpful.

Also, why is my nine year old a teenager?

Like what do I do with them?

And as we were doing all this work in school systems and with families and then receiving that information from folks after the first book published, we're like, all right, it seems like there's a missing resource here for middle childhood, and so we dove in and wrote it.

Yeah, well, what are the most common challenges with kids this age?

Sure, we we start to really see in this age is a real shift into identity of like who am I outside of the home?

Who am I?

In my peer group.

What am I interested in?

All of a sudden, They're like, no, I want this pair of shoes, not that one, I want to do this thing.

I'm interested in that I want to hang out with these people.

And there's this real shift away from the home where they are coming into who they are, and with that comes a lot of other shifts and changes.

We're going to see some hormonal shifts and changes that start in this age range and that pull away from away from home and into who they are and who they are kind of trying on for size sometimes.

And the thing that we get the most questions about is the like defiant disrespect, those eye rolls, the throwing the backpack on the floor, the slamming the door.

They're like, no, I'm not going to do that, or I hate you, or you're the worst mom, And really like, how do we respond to that disrespect in defiance and continue to nurture our relationship with this child?

A lot of folks are like, wait, where did my sweet little kid go?

Yeah, well, what are some good ways to connect with kids in the sage?

Sure?

Well, we talk a lot about in big kids, bigger feelings.

It's not a one size fits all.

As I said at the beginning, I have two very different humans that I'm raising, and connection with both of them looks very different.

With one of them, connection looks like focus time with me, and as kids get older, humans like this might really love things like being able to text you back and forth, or write a journal back and forth, or leave notes back and forth, or have time where you're driving in the car and it's just the two of you kind of chatting where they don't have to look at your face to process how you feel about something, but they can share stuff and kind of have that connection time.

We have some kids like my daughter who is a big connection seeker, and for her she's fulfilled.

She's also a sensory seeker, so she's like, give me like a hang, I want to be in a group.

Hang, I want music going on, I want to have a dance party.

Like I don't need the focused one to one time as much as I need to be around other humans more consistently, really getting that connection bucket filled.

I think the most important thing we can do, no matter who you're raising in this season is to embrace curiosity that for so many of us we have our own experience of childhood that's going to lead us into what we think our kids should do, shouldn't do, should be interested in, shouldn't be interested in?

Who they should hang out with?

What should matter?

And when we can recognize what's coming up for us from our childhood, really get curious about who is the kid in front of me, what are they into, and move out of a place of judgment and decision making on our side and into a place of like, tell me more about what is coming up for you, or why you want to hang out with this person, or what's really appealing about this thing for you?

And moving into curiosity is one of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves and our kid in terms of relationship in the season.

Absolutely, all right, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and then I'll be more back with more from Alyssa Blast Campbell.

Well, I am back talking with Alyssa Blast Campbell, who is the author of the book Big Kids, Bigger Feelings about the elementary years.

And you were just talking about trying to not grasp onto whatever you had going on as a kid and what you were as a kid, because obviously your kids are entirely different people.

Than you are.

But with that, a lot of the in the book, you often have sort of scripts of people talking or things that they've been saying with their kids, and sometimes people are telling stories from their childhood like oh yeah, I used to think this and did this with Grandma, or I did this or I felt this.

I'm curious, how does one gauge when it's right to bring in something from your own life and when that risks coming across as well?

And I was your age, I did.

You know this?

Sure, sure, sure, I appreciate this question.

So when we're doing it from a place of this is right or this is wrong because this is what I experience, that's much different than sharing with our kids, Ah yeah, I remember when I was a kid and this came up for me too, and sharing a story with them about your experience rather than I'm parenting from a place of this is what is right or what is wrong because it's what I've experienced.

Sharing stories with our kids about our experience can be so powerful for them to know that they're not alone, They're not the first person to ever experienced this.

And if it's really from a place of connection of like, oh yeah, I know what that feels like or I remember going through something like that too, And different kids receive this differently, and you start to learn that real young before they are five years old, you already know if you have shared with your kid and to like, no, that's not what it's like for me, or you don't understand at all, then this is not an approach I would use with this child.

This is not a way that they feel connected.

We talk about the connection blueprint in this book, and part of that is really observing when you are trying to connect with your child.

Is it something that they receive as connection or do they pull away from you?

All right, well, let's talk about One thing that makes kids pull away from you is when they suspect that they.

Are in trouble.

Sure, and so one of the helpful phrases in Big Kids, Bigger Feelings is you're not in trouble, So explain why you're not in trouble is a bit of a magic phrase for opening up.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, if you imagine if I come into a room and you're doing something, maybe it's something you know you're not supposed to do, and I came in, I'm like, what are you doing in here?

And I come in with this like power over tone, body language.

What happens on a neurobiological level for you is that your nervous system says, WHOA, I'm not safe with this person.

I'm gonna put my guard up right.

Do not let your guard down because you're not safe with this person.

Don't be vulnerable with them.

Don't share your honesty, your truth with them.

You might get in trouble for it.

It is then worth it often to lie, because if you tell the truth, you're going to get in trouble.

When we come in and I say, man, I just got off the phone with your teacher and she called to say that you haven't been turning in your homework, I'm not mad at you.

You're not in trouble.

I want to help you figure this out.

That I know that there are things that you want to do, and that some of those things require you passing this class.

You wanted to play basketball, and in order to play basketball, you have to and grades for it.

So I want to help you figure this out, not mad at you.

I know that you want to make a kind choice, or the choice that's going to be right for you, and it seems like that's hard, right now, let's figure it out together.

In that then kids are safe to be honest with you, be vulnerable, say like yeah, when I'm in class, I'm not understanding anything she's saying, I can't do the homework, I'm not getting it, and be able to open up and share with you, Versus if they're going to be in trouble for something, it is not worth it for them to share with you, to be honest with you.

It's more worth it for them to lie.

Yeah, and you said that lying is because lying is another thing that happens frequently with kids in this stage, but that's often a function more of a self regulation than it is of being malicious, at least in this sort of five to ten year old age group.

Yeah, it can serve both purposes.

It could serve the purpose of like self protection, right in a few different ways of like I don't want to feel embarrassed.

Right If somebody's like did you far and you're like in a few pats and they're like, oh yeah, yeah exactly, like they're like no, not me, then it's worth it for them to lie even if they did.

Right.

So there's times where it might be self preservation in that terms of like am I going to feel embarrassed by this?

Is this something?

Or is this something that's gonna get me in trouble?

And when we're looking at malicious lying, I don't believe in it actually across the board, to be honest, I think it always serves a purpose that we lie for a reason.

And it might be to try and get something that they're hoping to have so that they could feel included in a group.

It might be because they're exhausted and you're like, did you brush your teeth?

And they're like yes, and they didn't, And they're really just saying I'm so exhausted and spent from the day that I don't have the capacity to go brush my teeth.

But when we can get curious about like why would they be lying here?

What's driving that?

There's always a reason driving that life.

Well, let's talk about that exhaustion thing.

Because you have an acronym, I believe facts of the thing that you could try going through.

If a child is having a self regulation issue, if they're having a meltdown, what the things that might be to blame at the moment, or what they might need.

Yeah, we can dive into the facts, and it's both reactive and proactive.

So if you're like, Hi, I want to make sure my kid is set up for success, whether it's going to school or going to do homework after school, or it's going into any sort of social situation, you're like, I'm going to make sure they're set up for success from a regulation standpoint, that they're basically as resourced as possible.

We're going to go through the facts proactively and then reactively in the moment when they're having that hard time, I'm going to start with the facts.

What we're looking at here is how's their nervous system doing?

What do they need?

So we kickstart with food.

When it was the last time they had food that's going to nurse their body?

Are they angry right now?

Are they coming home from school and they like need a snack and instead of being like I'm hungry, they are doing things to their sibling that's annoying, or they're throwing their backpack on the floor, they're rolling their eyes that you really they just need a snack.

So are they hungry?

When was the last time they had food that nourishes them?

A activity?

When was the last time they moved their body or had access to activity that's regulating for them.

We have a QR code in the book that you can scan and it goes to seed quiz dot com.

It's a free questionnaire for any age human including adults, can take it.

You take as many times as you want, and what it does is help you understand your unique nervous system that what's regulating for one human is not necessarily regulating for the other.

For instance, I am regulated by properceptive input.

This is like big body play or deep pressure.

I love a workout class like kickboxing or something where I can run or jump or kick or hit.

I love that pressure.

I love a massage.

I love having like a kid on my back for like a piggyback ride.

Those are regulating things for me.

My husband is regulated by vestibular input.

This he sits in like a swivel chair for work, so he can move throughout the day in a way that's regulating for him.

I get motion sickness or nauseous if I'm sitting in that swivel chair for too long.

So the activity piece is really customized to that human.

And you can go to seed quiz dot com and learn more about your unique nervous system or your kids to know when was the last time they had activity that was regulating for them?

See is connection?

Are we providing them connection in a way that they receive it?

So we talked a little bit about that connection blueprint, really looking at how do they feel connected.

Are they a human who's like, yes, sit and talk to me, or like, let's go to this event together and We're hanging out with all these people and I leave and I'm like, oh, my connection cup is so full?

Or are they a human who's more of a like one to one kind of smaller, quieter time connection person.

And maybe you're like, yeah, we just like hung out and went shopping for an hour and a half and your child's like, yeah, don't.

Then we get home and they're like, mom, watch this, Mom, can you come see this?

I just spent an hour and a half with you and they don't feel filled by that.

So really helping you understand like how does your unique child receive connection?

And then we have twoe out.

Tune out is where we are taking a break from stimuli.

It's giving our nervous system.

Even one minute is so powerful it would mean all screens away and in a space where we don't have like background noise happening, just giving your brain and body a break from processing all the stimuli around you.

Imagine like I definitely have felt this is a mom so many times where I'm like, I just want to lay in a dark room where noone's talking to me or touching me, or needing anything for me, say in my name, and just to be for a minute.

Even one minute of this is powerful.

And then we look at sleep.

Are they just tired?

Are we trying to have them do things and they're like I can't, I'm spent and I just need to go to sleep.

And we're going to see this in times of transition.

This could be back to school, it could be a new classroom.

It could also be shifts into a new activity or club or sport or new friend group and they're working so hard all day long that they don't have much left to give and they're just exhausted.

Yeah, well, sleep is something that makes a lot of us krabby.

If we are not getting enough.

I wonder we could talk and pivot to some scripts that we can help children use if other people are doing things to them, like peers are doing things that are mean to them if they don't like a situation at school, rather than just sort of lashing out to what are some scripts we can teach them.

Yeah, so we can teach them to be really direct.

We have kids like beating around the bush with things, and what we have found so successful in our work with kids is having them say things like I don't like when you do that, or when you are all together in this group chat and I'm not invited, I feel left out.

Often when kids are really direct about their feelings, I feel this other kids are really receptive to it, that they will say things like, oh, we didn't mean to leave you out that.

Of course, we walk through the world, and especially in this middle childhood time where we think everyone's looking at us and thinking about us all the time.

Right, we just were at a like hang with some new folks recently we left and I was like, oh my god, I said the stupidest thing and like replaying it in my head, and my husband was like, that person probably doesn't even know you exist anymore, Like they're not thinking about you.

And same with our kids right that, like they are thinking that everything is happening to them because everyone's thinking about them and so when they can say things like I feel left out.

When this happens, often what we hear is other kids saying things like, oh, I'm sorry, we didn't mean to leave you out, or yeah, we'd love for you to come join, or yeah, well when you were saying X, Y and Z to this kid, they didn't like that, so we didn't include you.

They get more to what's actually going on when we can give them those direct scripts to say with I feel language.

Yeah, well that's a good idea for an adult as well.

We'ren take one more quick.

Ad break and I'll be back with more from Alyssa Blast Campbell.

Well, I am back talking with Alissa Blast Campbell, who's the author of Big Kids, Bigger Feelings, which is a book looking at the elementary year sort of roughly ages five to ten, eleven, twelve.

But before we get to the whole teenagerdom and all that might involve, I think a lot of parents, especially when you think about what kind of kids they're trying to raise, what they say, I would really like to raise a kind person.

So I wonder what are some practical strategies we can do in our daily lives to teach kids about kindness, sympathy, things like that.

Yeah, the most powerful thing you can do is model it that they are always listening all the time, whether they are in conversation with us or not, they're hearing.

How do we talk about people who are not in the room.

What do we do in our everyday life?

He shared a story in this Book of Time where I was leaving the grocery store with my child and there's this mom who was just in it.

She's got three kids, everyone's melting about different things, and my son and I just I said, come on, bud, let's go help her.

And we popped over and we helped her, and we took some groceries, took kids, we tagged, teamed basically this whole situation with her.

And on the way home, he asked why I did that?

Why did we stop and help them?

And I got to tell him, because nobody's doing this alone, that everybody helps each other and it's one of the ways that we're kind in this world.

I could tell him to do things all day long that are kind for other humans.

The most powerful thing I can do is to be kind to other humans, to hold that door, to say thank you to somebody, to be accountable for my own actions, to say like, oh man, I was having a hard time earlier and I lost my cool with you, and I'm really sorry that wasn't okay for me to do.

Having accountability for our actions is one of the kindest things we can do for the humans around us, And if we want to teach that to kids, we've got to model it.

When we treat them and others around us with kindness, they start to treat others with kindness.

That a kid is not going to be respectful and kind if they've been disrespected and we're not kind to and around them.

So the greatest thing to do is to practice it.

Yeah.

Absolutely, So this is an age where I mean, people are starting to get sort of the executive functions to start thinking a little bit more about the future versus what is right exactly in front of them.

I wonder if there's ways you can think about, especially as kids are in school and trying to think about longer term things like a weekly assignment, for instance, or maybe a quiz that the teacher has said is coming up in a couple days.

What are some ways to sort of help support them as they begin to think about time on a longer time horizon.

Yeah.

I mean time management is such a valuable skill in life, and it's not something that necessarily just comes right.

It's not like, oh, you're old enough, now you have time management skills.

I know a lot of adults that don't have time management skills.

You don't just hit a certain age and get it.

So really being able to what we call scaffold them through this where if you think of a building where you're building it and they put scaffolding up until that part of the building is done, they keep that scaffolding up and then they pull it back when the building can stand on its own.

That's what we're looking at here is how can we build in scaffolding them.

How can we give them tools?

Like, Hey, I noticed that you have this assignment due next week, this paper you're working on.

Let's sit down and look at the calendar and we can together right in where you're going to work on it?

What times are you going to work on it?

Oh, it looks like we have music class after school on Tuesdays, so that probably isn't a great night for it.

And then we were going to that soccer game on Saturday morning.

That's probably not a great time for it.

Let's look at the calendar together and think about, hmmm, when are you going to have time to work on this so that it's not Monday night and you're like, oh shoot, I forgot to do this, mom, like I need your help now, and feeling overwhelmed.

So really modeling this for them of let's look ahead, let's look at our week ahead.

We can also again and model this in our everyday life of okay, you know what, we're going to sit down and meal plan or do our grocery order for the week and figure out we have what happening on what nights, what are we going to eat for the week.

How do we plan for that ahead of time?

It's all away to model time management and then giving them those visual cues of are there post it note reminders, are there visual schedules?

Are there calendars that are being used?

We use those as adults all the time.

We joke could see that if it's not in my calendar, it's not real, it does not exist.

I will not just remember it.

And so to expect a kid to just remember that they have this test coming up without a visual support tool is kind of blockers that were like you have to remember it.

I won't ever remember these things because there's so much floating in librad but you should just remember without giving them visual tools is not an appropriate expectation.

So really looking at what can we put into place for them structurally to help scaffold some of those skills.

Yeah, although with kids this sage, I find that they remember the funniest things.

That's why that show are you Smarter than a fifth grader?

Is even a thing?

Right?

Remember the order of like all forty presidents or something, Because they don't have to remember that I have a deadline.

Like the same.

I can't remember that my child is a dentist appointment next weekend unless it's in my or next week.

This is in my calendar.

But I can tell you some random facts of things that don't deserve to have life in my brain.

The lyrics from US from late nineteen ninety six.

Yes exactly.

All right, well listen, this has been great.

We always end our interviews with a love of the week, so something that is just exciting or fun for you.

Mine is so random.

But you know, we play a lot of I have a bunch of little boys, so there's a lot of video games going on around here.

But one of my kids has been playing this game Grow a Garden that happens to have the background nice.

Is this like calm, lovely classical music.

I'm like, love, why don't you just keep playing that one?

That background music is superior to the others.

Much superior to Oh he's playing that.

It's like nice in the car and so it's like dog dong dong.

It's like no, Yeah, I think like Vivaldi.

So I'm a big fan.

How about you.

I love the My love of the week right now is Amy Polar's podcast Good Hang with Amy Polar.

In fact, I was just saying the other day there's like a big push for like watching podcasts on YouTube whatever, Like there's never a world in which I'm watching a podcast except for Amy Polars, which I watch on Spotify, And it's like my pleasure.

I at the end of the night, kids are in bed and I'm like doing the dishes, like prop my phone up and just watch it while I'm doing the dishes and loving it.

She's so funny and it's like the perfect light thing for the week.

Yeah, well makes doing the dishes better, I guess not.

Thanks Amy, Thanks Amy, So, Alyssa, where can people find you?

Yeah, seedns sew dot org is our mothership.

If anyone's interested in bringing any of this work to their child's school, there's tools and resources on our website for how to do that and connect us to the school and we can see if there's an interest there, and then you can snag Big Kids, Bigger Feelings wherever books are sold.

And I read the audio book if that's of interest to you too.

All right, well, Lyssa, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Well, we are back.

I was just interviewing Alyssa Black Campbell, author of Big Kids, Bigger Feelings.

So today's question was posted on our Patreon page.

One of our community members says she is a new runner and is looking for advice on how to get started.

So, Sarah, I'm curious what your advice was for her.

Yeah.

I mean, I think if you're a very brand new beginning runner, checking out a training plan that's really simple is a great idea like couch to five K is an excellent place to start, or a similar other beginner plan, because it's just nice to have some structure around, Like, Okay, how am I even supposed to go about doing this.

There is a sort of social media of running called Strava, which a lot of people enjoy.

If you choose to partake and you are a newer runner, just try not to get caught in the comparison trap, because you're going to see people who are fast and who've been doing this for many, many years.

And if you have a positive attitude like oh, that's inspiring and cool, then it's great.

But I think some people also are like, oh that's you know, I'm so much slower.

No one cares, like none of us are pros.

I mean you can follow some pros.

That's actually really fun and it puts everyone else in perspective because if you're if you're following like Connor Mantz or something like that, and you see his like four fifty whatever, four thirty splits on his long run, then you're like, okay, like he you know, I'm just with all the other normal people, because that's so far of up social runs.

Don't say no to social runs because you're scared you can't keep up.

Like most people don't care what pace they run, and a social run always is just so much fun, like you can make some wonderful friendships through running, and I think some people get intimidated to try it, especially when they're newer.

If it makes you feel better.

I used to run with someone that was so much faster than me, Like literally, her half marathon race pace was like two minutes per mile faster than mine.

She used to run collegiately.

She didn't care because we had great talks and we had a great time.

So if she could run with me, you can run with whoever, and then be grateful that you can do it, because not everyone can do it.

It's not the end'll be all.

You don't have to be able to do it, but just getting out and being going for a run is a gift, so try to appreciate it.

Yeah, I was going to say I never used any of the running apps, and I'm trying to think back, like when I was starting, I had to start a couple times, like it took a while before I really started running regularly, And I think when I finally did it was because I went slow and went for just a little bit and then tried it again, and then eventually you can do it a little bit longer.

But it's not any sort of thing where you need to be aiming to do a lot right at the beginning, and you don't have to do it structured either.

I mean, I know that now because there is stuff like couch to five k A lot of people do follow that.

But you can just put on shoes and.

Run slowly for a little bit, see how it goes, and then you're a runner.

There's no barrier to entry from that perspective.

Walk brakes are allowed, by the way, yeah, and walk breaks are allowed, and you can go very very slow, like there's no reason to like paul out and then not be able to keep going or anything like that.

So but we were having this discussion on Patreon because people are like mapping out runs and things like that, and I'm like, I don't think I've ever mapped out of run.

I don't know.

Even when I was training for races, I would sort of have a time that I was intending to go, but I wouldn't even always do that.

I think a lot of us, you know, it's always been a fly by the seat of my pants sort of thing for me.

If you're running somewhere unfamiliar and you just need like a safe path, that's a great reason to like that's when I've mapped out around I'm traveling, and I'm like, where am I not going to like run into I don't know, like a place where I feel unsafe.

And then yeah, looking at a path and mapping it out can be super helpful.

It's also fine to run loops, like there's no rule against that.

That's true.

That's true.

Loops are totally good.

I like loops.

I like the loops, although you should know that you may not do a second loop like you may.

Some people loop and be like, yeah, I have done.

My husband has that issue, like he feels like he has to map out a route that's not a loop because all the rise will fill tup to the stop.

I honestly never had that problem when I ran.

But yeah, you're mile loache Mayberry.

Yeah, I once did a loop where I because I was it was like a two and a half mile track or a loop with like a set trail, like this is just a nature chill that's two and a half miles and I was trying to do ten miles, so I was gonna have to do it four times.

So I would stop about one hundred yards before I could get like see my car, and I would reverse and then go the other way and then I stop again before the edit would reverse.

This is why I think you're like an upholder rebel sometimes like that's fascinating.

Well, you know it worked, it worked, I did it.

All right.

Well, this has been best of both worlds.

I was interviewing Alyssa Black Campbell.

We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

Thanks for listening.

You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.

Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

This has been the best of both worlds podcasts.

Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.