Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

Welcome back to the podcast.

New listeners, old listeners.

Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here.

Back for another episode as we of course break down the psychology of our twenties.

Every few years, I feel like a new form of therapy rises to the surface, a new form of mental health treatment and new wellness practice becomes the new it thing.

A couple of years ago, it was like in a child healing, and that's still very relevant that everyone was very obsessed with it.

Reiki was another one.

Somatic release was another one that people got really really obsessed with.

And when that happens, there is this like real chance that we can become really kind of misinformed, or that we can think that one mode of dealing with emotional and mental issues is the only mode that we should be pursuing, that everything else was that came before it was false and breath work might just be the new it thing.

I feel like I've been hearing about it everywhere.

Everyone is talking about it.

I know it can be so incredibly powerful, but I'm a little bit skeptical.

I've done a little bit of research on my own, but I thought, you know what, let's talk to an expert.

I feel like other people in their twenties, other people in general, will have questions about all the dialogue they see online or the recommendations there be hearing from other people about the power of breath work.

So we're going to talk about what it actually is, how it works, how it operates according to science, how it can go hand in hand with more modern day practices and therapeutic approaches, and also it's traditional and ancient roots.

And of course we're bringing on an expert who is here with us right now.

Hello, Jessica, welcome to the show.

Can you quickly introduce yourself for the listeners.

It's such an honor and a delight to be with you, Jemma.

This topic of your podcast about people in their twenties and how they want to care for themselves and develop themselves and grow and be healthy and all of that is just so important for our whole planet, not just the individual.

So it's an honor to be with you.

So yes, my name is Jessica, and I am the co director of the Global Professional Breathwork Alliance, and we are the organization that sets the international standards, the gold standard for breath work training and ethics.

And I also have the real privilege of being the director of Inspiration Consciousness School in Maryland in the United States.

And it's really a school that is dedicated to people from age sixteen to ninety six or one hundred and six who want to develop their capacity to be present to themselves and other people who want to develop their capacity to love, to be honest with you, to be compassionate and kind, but also to be creative and strong and powerful and contributing to themselves and the life of the planet.

And so it's just my honor.

Our school uses many different modalities, but all of them are breast centered because we feel that reads the universal medicine.

Oh.

I love that.

That's so beautiful and what a beautiful introduction.

You are most certainly an expert.

And I actually got my hands on your book while you sent me a copy, and it is so wonderfully comprehensive, and I feel like breath work is really having a moment online on the internet and self help communities right now, how would you explain what breath work is and more specifically, what is the difference between breathwork and simply just deep breathing or meditation?

Good questions.

So, breath work is a spectrum of breathing practices, voluntary breathing, conscious breathing in different ways that address everything from relaxation at one end and regulation to deep human potential at the other end of the spectrum, like who are we at the core?

What are each of us capable of?

What could we bring to the world?

And in between you have these other factors such as how it is that we can bring more awareness to everything we're doing, or we can go a step further and say, okay, if there's something that needs intervention like a physical challenge, an illness and emotional dysregulation, are there particular breathing practices that would target, so to speak, those specific things.

And there's also breathing practices that are totally meant to develop human capabilities, human capacities such as strength, compassion, focus, joy, and so then at the far end, of course, you go all the way to who am I at my essence.

So the breathwork is really a spectrum of all of those practices.

And what I would say is it's definitely differentiated from just straight meditation, because a lot of meditation is centered on the breathing or uses the breathing.

But there is an aspect of meditation that is about realizing sort of a more transcendent self, a more peaceful self, all of which is fantastic.

I meditate too, I'm a great believer in it.

Breathwork, though, is very focused on embodiment.

It's focused on how do I experience these things in my body?

And rather than trying to transcend certain human characteristics, shall we say, really the deeper kind of breath work is about embracing all of those characteristics and finding out what's at the core of our behaviors, what's at the core of our motivations, why we do the wonderful things we do, why we do the things that aren't so good for us and sabotage ourselves and others, and how we can actually transform those in the moment in the body.

And so we do find that there are some studies that show that about ten percent of people who meditate it actually disregulates them rather than regulates them, because it's not dealing with some of the things that they may be carrying, like trauma, for instance, Whereas with breath work particulate, if you're being guided by a really well trained breath worker who really knows the territory, you're actually able to deal with your trauma that is integrated into your experience of what it is to become present.

That is such a beautiful explanation.

And it's so interesting that you said meditation can cause some people to become dysregulated, because I actually heard from a listener the other day, and I've heard from a number of listeners who are like, I don't get the deal with meditation.

I always feel worse afterwards.

So I as soon as you said that, I was like, oh, I know a lot of people can relate to that.

Can you give us an insight into the traditional origins of breath work and of this practice, because I feel like this is not a new.

Thing, definitely not a new thing, because of course we've all been breathing since the very beginning exactly, and in fact, the whole planet breathes.

Really if you could think of it as one breath, because everything's involved in the oxygen cycle.

Oxygen's the most abundant element on our planet, the third most abundant element in the universe, and not only humans and all non human creature and animals, but also the plants, the fungi, mycilium, trees, the earth itself has oxygen in it, the waters, the air, the sources of heat.

Everything's participating in photosynthesis or in the oxygen cycle.

So it's really a comprehensive and unifying, and really it has us have the realization of our essential interconnection with everything.

So we actually find and you might have seen this in my book.

I think I have about sixteen to twenty different places or origins or cultures where it shows that from the very beginning of particular religions, spiritual past cultures, it was just really known that breathing is it, you know, breathing is the connection between wherever it is or whatever it is that we are before we come into the body and actually being here.

And so many cultures spoke of it as you know, the connection with God, the connection with source, the connection with creation, or even more powerfully that it is creation, it is the source, it is God, sort of moving through reality in our bodies, and so you find it coming from Japan and China and India and Africa, the African nations.

There's breath work way back there, Mesopotamia, just every religion that I could find, Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, they all have at the core of their mystical teachings that it is actually the breath that is the doorway to everything that we're looking for.

Which is amazing because I feel like as much as it's just entering perhaps the brains and the minds of the new generation, it's being introduced to a younger group.

The fact that it's been around for ages kind of a lot of evidence in itself how magnificent it is.

But speaking of evidence, I'm sure a lot of people perhaps are listening to some of these explanations and being like, that sounds a bit a bit niche, that sounds a bit perhaps wu wo, and whatever else they want to label it.

There is definitely science behind this, as I saw in your book.

Can you explain the science, any psychology, any studies that kind of support the benefits of breath work?

Yes, absolutely, I mean, it really is gemma that modern science and ancient wisdom about breathing are finding each other.

Modern science in a sense is catching up, you know, with ancient wisdom.

And it used to be that it might take you know, you might find a study about breathing and its effects on the psyche maybe once a year, once every few years, you know, And now it's like the research is just coming out.

I mean, breath as you said, is really having its time, and I think it will remain that case because breath work and breathing is the fundamental medicine and nutrient and friend of every human being.

And it's also the unifying language of the human species.

And we can talk about that later how it transcends language and gender and political orientation and all of that.

So the science, though, is really powerful at this point.

It's irrefutable, for instance, that breathing is psychophysiological, and that means that literally every breath we take has a psychological derivation, and it has a physiological derivation, and every breath that we take also affects us physically and affects us psychologically, so that science is irrefutable.

Another piece of the science that's irrefutable is that low deep breathing stimulates the autonomic nervous system, which we want to have in balance.

Where sympathetic and parasympathetic are working, they are reflective, and when they're optimized, we're able to use our parasympathetic ability to rest and digest and be and be more peaceful when it's needed, and we're able to flow easily into the sympathetic mode when we need to be active, when we need to respond to something, when there's something either urgent or just needful, and the flow back and forth between those two things ideally should be very easy, and it shouldn't be like, oh, it's hard for me to get going, or I'm scared to get going, or it's hard for me to stop when I'm phrenetic and I can't really calm down.

Optimal heart rate variability is the ability to move back and forth.

So we've seen in study after study that bathing slowly with awareness helps to bring that parasympathetic sympathetic balance so that you really have more flow in your life.

Another thing that's irrefutable is that some breathing, Although I can be very specific about this, it's not just any breathing, and it's not the same for every person.

I think that's very important in breath work.

I think a lot of people want there to be a formula like if I do this breathing, my anxiety will go down.

If I do this breathing, I'll get more energy.

But the reality is we all have a different genetics.

We all have you know, there's a lot of similarity, but there's also differences.

We all have a different attachment history, meaning who were our caregivers and how do we relate to them?

And how does that affect the way our body feels and the way our breathing is.

Our breathing does reflect our psychological state.

And so it's just the case thought there's going to be an ind so two people that have anxiety may respond differently to different breathing techniques or different breathing practices.

And this is why I think the ultimate breathwork evolution is going to be a bio individualized coaching for each person that each person can then feel from within themselves what really regulates.

But nevertheless, the majority of people will with certain kinds of breathing, have their cortisol levels greatly reduce, their anxiety levels go down.

And there have been many studies showing different kinds of breathing elevating mood.

One study that came out of Stanford about a year and a half ago, almost two years ago, now that was Spiegel Huberman at al.

Showed that the most effective breathing again this is on a bell curve, so for most people but not everybody, for reducing anxiety and elevating mood is breathing in and then before you breathe out, you take another little sifmin so you kind of lengthen that inhale in two segments and then you sigh it out, and five minutes of that will create a state change.

And if you practice it every day for thirty eight thirty twenty eight to thirty days for five minutes, then you get state to trait.

You know, you get that movement from I can I know what this feels like now to its actually sticking with me.

So that was a really interesting study because they were comparing that to I think box breathing and also cyclical hyperventilation.

So you know, different breathing techniques can can address different aspects of our psychological states and how we can come into greater regulation, but also how we can deal with the unmet parts of ourselves.

You know, perhaps it's like the parts of ourselves that didn't get nourished or nurtured enough when we were children.

So these are the kinds of things that can happen when you're working with the psychological material that we do in therapy, which is rarely powerful.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing therapy.

I'm actually making a proposal that the beauty of therapeutic understanding is going to be activated and enhanced by bringing breath work into it because we're able to go underneath the verbal defenses, the orientations, the descriptions that we make about ourselves and others, and we're able to get to feelings that we weren't able to get to.

We're able to get to capacities that might be lying dormant in us, that never got the nutrients and the attention that they need.

There's all kinds of possibilities, and that includes expanded states of consciousness.

Hm hmm.

That's such a beautiful explanation.

I feel like you've mentioned some of the different techniques A couple of times.

You mentioned box breathing, then there was that in how what are some of the most obviously you say, I don't know the names.

What are the some of the different types of breath work techniques, how do they kind of work, and what are they meant to be targeting?

Like, are there a couple that are that are the major pillars of breath work?

What are the most common ones?

So that's a really good question, Gemma.

As you may know from the book, I've really looked at the breath work spectrum and I've identified five sort of groupings of breath work.

So the first grouping is rest and relaxation or restoration or regulation, and those are your simple reading techniques.

There's so many of them where it's it's just read inhaling a little deeper than normal usually and then kind of sighing it out or letting it out or groaning it out, you know, and they it's wonderful to watch children do this, you know, when they're kind of angry and then they take three deep breasts and they let it out and then they go, I was angry at Johnny, and then I took three deep breasts and I'm not angry anymore.

Of the regulation.

So it can be as simple as anybody can do it.

Just breathe a little deeper than normal and then let go, just kind of let go kind of a sigh, a release, or even you can like I said, moan or groan or even make a sound.

And there's other ones too, things like it might be like a wave where you feel like there's see in hill coming in and there's the ex hill going out.

And these things will tend to give put a kind of pause on whatever stressor has been happening, whatever stress reaction you're having, and it will allow the body to find an equilibrium.

Again.

Second group has to do with awareness, and that's really the beginning of being more present.

So that's where you're going to find your mindfulness techniques, your breath awareness techniques.

And so actually there's a scientist at UCLA named Jack Feldman.

He's a very awarded considered really the top breathing scientist in the world today and has a prize that's like one step down from the Nobel And he found the origin of breathing in the brainstem, which he named the prebot center complex, and he wanted he was very interested about what is it, why is it that mindfulness works for most people?

And what he discovered was that when it works, the reason it's working has to do with breathing, the mindfulness, it's not so much about what you're paying attention to where that helps.

It's an enhancement.

But he took mice and he breathed them.

He made them breathe at a certain rate for a certain amount of time each day, and the group that did that breathing thirty days later, when they were introduced to a fear inducing stimulus, they were markedly less fearful than the control group.

So it's things like that where he hasn't quite published that study yet, but it's going to be coming out.

So you have these breath awareness mindfulness techniques that really give you the capacity to be more aware of your internal environment, your interception, and your extraception, like what is going on around you, and to be in the present rather than in the future or the past.

Only your third grouping has to do with interventions.

So this is where you know you have asthma, you have hyperactivity, neurodivergence, you have a kind of a low energy like you constantly sort of feel fatigued, you have a hyperactivity and you feel over adrenalized.

Yeah, they're just things like that, and there are very specific techniques that can address those kinds of things.

For instance, one is something that I learned when I was much younger and I was studying yoga breathing techniques.

Yogic pronium is sleeping, a sleeping breathing technique and really works.

It has to do with the ratio of the inhale to the exhale.

Or there's another one that I talk about in the book that I was taught it as asthma breathing or asthma proniama, but I've renamed it respiratory healing because it just works on about any kind of respiratory ailment, emphysema COPD.

My own father had COPD and I had him doing these exercises, and he lived to be ninety nine, and the doctor said that there was no doubt that the breathing techniques had really given him extra time, extra years.

So you'll have also techniques in there for deep emotional regulation, like coherent breathing, which is sometimes called resonance breathing, which is basically an equivalent ratio of the inhale and the exhale are the same count and it's generally five to six breasts per minute for most people.

But again there's a bioindividuation, and there are people that do better with four breaths a minute, and there are people that do better with eight.

And what the science is showing is actually just that it's the fact that the inhale and the exhale are at the same equivalent amount of time that is really the mitigating factor there.

The fourth grouping has to do with human development, and these are your beautiful breathing techniques, like how do you breathe with the sense of breathing into your heart and feeling compassion, for instance, for yourself and others, and then letting your body feel or what kind of breathing can you do to feel more focused and stronger, or what kind of breathing can you do to feel a sense of joy and gratitude and ambulance.

So these are the development of the deeper kind of desirable human qualities.

And then that fifth group is what I call human potential breath work, and it's really where you're breathing in a certain way continuously.

Some schools call it conscious connected breathing.

There are so many different ways that this variety of breathing is called holotropic breath work, integrative breath work, rebirthing, conscious connected breathing, therapeutic breathwork, transfer national breath and all of them are giving the person permission to breathe really deeply and really continuously, because when we hold our breath there's a kind of unconsciousness that can happen.

So you breathe continuously so that the unconscious starts to become more conscious.

It's really quite miraculous, and that feelings, images, yearnings, hopes, you know, even the so called visions that we can all have, can begin to surface in an atmosphere of love, in an atmosphere of unconditional positive regard and acceptance, and we can integrate these more transcendental, more trans personal, more holotropic aspects of ourself.

Really it's the level of soul in some ways, it's really that part of the psyche that wonders about the deeper parts of life and the mystery of life, like what is this soul really about?

And who am I really and what am I really capable of?

And what is the meaning of life?

And so that kind of breath work does that, and so there are many different technique there's a variety of techniques, shall we say, a whole panically.

And I feel like there's something for everyone.

Perhaps one of the misconceptions with breath work is that, yes, like we said before, it is just deep breathing and there is one strategy.

But like you said, breath is is like life itself, and if life itself is as varied that it is as it is, then our breath can be as well.

We are going to take a short break right now, but when we return, I want to also talk about some of the misconceptions about breath work, whether it can be scary, what you would say to skeptics, but also how we can kind of integrate it into more modern medicinal practices and modern therapeutic techniques.

So stay with us.

Okay, we are back with our breath work expert, Jessica.

So this is a personal question of mine that I have about breath work, and basically using this interview as an excuse just to ask you what I want to know, which is, can breath work be scary?

You know some people report feeling strange afterwards, or even high or whatever it is.

Can it yeah, can it be scary?

What should we know about that element of it?

So?

I think most people enjoy feeling high and if because it's a positive experience.

So that part alone isn't what scares them.

What scares them is when there is what I will call intrapsychic material feelings that may have been buried, memories that may have not you know, you didn't remember that you knew these things, capacities within the self, even like trans personal kinds of experiences, like feeling connected to everything, feeling that there's a power greater than yourself.

Whether you just think of that as physics like you know, quantum quantum field, or whether you think of it as a divine entity.

I think that in and of itself, that wouldn't scare anybody, because it actually feels like you're coming more home to yourself than you've ever been.

But what scares people is that they don't they didn't live in a culture that taught them that it was okay to have those kind of experiences.

So if they're not working with a breath worker who's really skilled, when they're going into those deeper kinds of experiences, they might have a moment of feeling un mirrored.

You know, psychotherapeutically, we want people in process to feel mirrored, to feel attuned to and so this is why I feel really lucky, privileged, honored to be the co director of the Global Professional Breathwork Alliance because we are setting standards for training and for ethics, and we have a very deep ethics around the expanded states of consciousness that people can access through breathing.

You know, there's been two studies now that have shown that that kind of group five breathwork, that human potential breath work can be equivalent or even greater than the effects of psychedelics, but without the side effects.

But what you need for it to be of ultimate use is you need a guide or a coach, or an understanding of what's happening so that you can celebrate that this incredible thing is opening up for you.

So I know, like, for instance, yes, occasionally, one example would be if you're doing that deeper kind of breath work, you might feel a kind of tingling, for instance, in your hands or feet or just anywhere in your body, and you come to understand that at the deepest level, it's where there's life force waking up that hasn't been there before.

But if you don't have somebody explaining that to you, it could be it could feel scary, for sure, but I remember, for instance, one student I had that when it stopped happening for him because he just got to the place where he was living it in an integrated way all the time, he was kind of sad because he liked that, you know, that feeling of being stretched a little bit.

So I don't think that breathwork needs to be scary at all, and I think that in our school, for instance, at Inspiration Consciousness School, I think our practitioners are trained to track people.

We don't We don't actually like people to do group breath work without also doing some individual breath work where they're getting that one on one coaching and we tell them that this is something you'll be able to do on your own very shortly.

But you just want to become familiar with the kind of territory that can open up because you are you know, you are filled with potential and all of that it's just going to come forward.

It sounds like it's quite a smart approach, one that keeps people safe and one that keeps people in the space that they're prepared and ready to be in, which I think makes me feel a lot better about this practice.

A kind of follow up question to that, as well, is what are some of the breakthroughs that people experience.

I know you've spoken a bit about some from students of yours and also some of your own.

Yeah, what can people kind of maybe expect or not expect?

So, first of all, I mean, some of it depends on what level of breath work you're engaging, Right, So if you're just if you're doing group one practices, you're mostly going to feel a sense of regulation, release, relaxation, let go, you know, just more at ease, less a dreamalized, less cortisol going, and that's wonderful, that's beautiful.

Or if you're doing your mindfulness stuff, you'll feel more present, more engaged, more able to be with whatever it is, whether it's cold or hot, or busy or not busy or whatever.

And then there's your individual techniques that are targeting those particular conditions.

There's the development of these qualities of sealth and capacity that you might have.

I think if we're doing the deeper kind of breath work that you're talking about with some of those effects.

I could just tell a few stories.

One person was a concentration camp survivor from Auschwitz and her son wanted her to come see me because he had grown up.

She had survived auschwitzen, so she didn't want anything to happen to her children.

So they were never allowed to like blind trees or you know, a mountain or anything that she thought could cause them damn.

And she was just like so fearful.

So she had high anxiety levels, massive amounts of control issues, and she didn't want to come see me.

She came and she said to me, the only reason I'm coming is to appease him.

Nothing's going to happen.

She had never told her story about Auschwitz.

She refused to talk about it.

All anybody, even her family knew, was that she had survived it.

So she said, I'm not going to tell you or anything.

So I sat there with her and we would talk about her son.

She said, we'll just sit here for an hour and then I'll tell him I did it and we'll go home.

So when she would say something beautiful about her son that she really loved, and I loved her son too, I'd say that's so BEAUTI full, wow, Can I just take that in for a minute, And I would breathe deeply and audibly, and the mirror neurons started going after a while, and so without her realizing it, I never asked her to breathe deeply.

I didn't want to break down her control.

She had every right to be protective of herself with what she had lived through.

I wanted to honor her internal wisdom.

So I never asked her to breathe deeply, but I would breathe deeply, And after about twenty minutes, she didn't realize it, but she was starting to breathe deeply whenever I would.

And then she asked me to share about some suffering in my life.

And when I would say certain things that he vote compassion in her, she would breathe deeply without realizing it.

And all I can tell you is that enough of those deep breasts happen that about an hour into it, she started sharing with me, with no I didn't even ask her.

She shared with me the whole story of how she survived Auschwitz.

And we were there for two hours, and when her son came in, he said the room was just luminous.

She became a more connected person, and she developed the courage that when Steven Spielberg came to town with the show A Project, which was when he was going to make Schindler's list he was interviewing concentration camp survivors.

She had the courage to go and tell her story, and that story is still up on their website.

Her name is Alice Krause.

And so that's a remarkable story because we didn't even do that of intensive breathing.

It was just the deeper breathing and the mirroring, you know, the unconditional positive regard that Carl Rogers, great humanist psychologists, taught us about, and how that can be enhanced by breathing together, which transcends language, race, jen under orientation, you know, it brings us down to a more unified place.

And look what happened.

I think about a young man who had bipolar disorder but it was undiagnosed, and he had a kind of spiritual awakening and he was really just seen like all of these greater truths about life.

But his mother, who did have bipolar, was noticing that he was getting kind of manic, and so she brought him to see me.

And we would never do like fast breathing with somebody that was in that kind of state.

So we did very slow, regulated breathing, and at some point I said, I think that you need, we should go to the hospital and you should get evaluated to see if you could also be assisted with some you know, pharmaceuticals.

And so we went for like six days and he got onto some medication as well, and then it took us about two years of breathing.

Following his breathing, he was determined to get off the medication and to be able to access those states that he had been in a flow and awaken, mean is what he called it, without going into the bipolar state.

And indeed that happened.

And it's twenty years later and he's not been on medication for that whole time, and he needs a wonderful life, and he does breathing techniques, and I mean, I could go on and on.

It's really I think one of the keys, Jemma, there are these I think that there are these kind of breathwork practices that people can do to just support themselves on a daily basis, to be healthier, to be more regulated.

I encourage everybody to do a minimum of seven minutes of just deeper breathing a day.

But I think if you're really looking for psychological well being and wholeness, that is includes that transformation that would happen with the unconscious self, with parts of us that might be traumatized and who isn't traumatized in today's world.

On one level, I think that developing a relationship with a really skilled breath worker, even for a short period of time, just really sets you on the right path.

I love that advice, and that kind of brings me to our second last question.

We're almost at the end of this interview.

Now I could go on for ages, but you've kind of already talked about it.

How do you think breath work fits in with broader therapeutic practices, the broader need for modern day medicine for diagnoses?

Yeah, how can it be part of a more individualized approach to mental health and broader conditions that kind of afflict people with out without offering itself as the only option.

It's kind of what I'm trying to say as an additive.

Right, it's not the only option.

It is an option that can be centered within every other option.

So you know, breathing's the universal medicine.

Even a person on a respirator, even a person who's paralyzed, is breathing, So there's something they can do volitionally even if they're breathing.

My dad was on a respirator a couple of times and we did breathing practices with him.

You can direct the intentionality of the breathing.

So it's really a universal medicine, and that's a very exciting prospect in terms of what it could mean for people having greater tolerance and understanding for each other and wanting to work together creatively to build a world that we can all relish together.

So I think that you know one of them that I sometimes say is a breathworker in every emergency room, a breath worker in every school, a breath worker in every office building, a breath worker in every theater.

Because people having a sense of energy, physical wellbeing, emotional regulation being responded to if they're having intense emotion could really really improve the health of our whole species.

So if you think about something like, for instance, I've talked to the founder of Internal Family Systems, which I think probably a lot of your listeners know about.

It's a very powerful psychological orientation, and we've talked about the fact that I've worked with parts of people that's how you think about Okay, there's this part that's angry.

There's this part that's a firefighter, there's this part, and each of them breathe a little differently.

But what they find is that they breathe a little differently, but they're all breathing, so that becomes the unifying thing, and then they can integrate into the self.

So I cannot think of a single psychological modality, including Freudian analysis.

We're breathing deeply and having that sense of embodiment helps to dissolve dissociation, which is a really important thing in psychological process and helps bring the sense of agency and the sense of personal empowerment.

I can't think of a single holistic modality of acupuncture or reiki or the body works that wouldn't benefit by a person also being able to breathe to somatically meet whatever is happening.

Same thing in mainstream medicine.

You know, if people are breathing more deeply, they're healthier.

My father had COPD, that's chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and like I said, the doctors were very clear that the breathing that we did gave him several years of extra life.

And so I just can't think of a single modality where it wouldn't enhance what's going on, because it helps document, it helps with awareness and what happens in the brain when you take when you consciously breathe is rather than just activating.

When we're breathing, we're just getting activation from the brain stem.

But when we're automatically breathing, but when we breathe consciously, the neocortex comes online and the limbic brain comes online, and we find that the respiratory circuits are embedded throughout the whole brain.

So you develop a kind of global coherence neurologically, which gives you access to many more resources, keeps you more present instead of just reacting unconsciously to things.

And so honestly, the ability for conscious breathing to help even us have a greater sense of inter reception and what's going on in our own body, I think would be a very partnering thing for medicine, for modern medicine, and just the ability to, yeah, to be in a more regulated state.

I think I just have never been able to think of one modality where it wouldn't help.

Yeah, as you were saying that, I was trying to rack my brain and I was like, oh, no, I couldn't think of any couldn't think of any, So I'm testing your hypothesis there.

So I've got one final question for you, and it actually has nothing to do with breath work.

In fact, I asked that it doesn't have anything to do with breath work.

At the end of every episode I have with a guest, I always ask them, what is the best piece of advice that you would give to someone in their twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.

You know, I feel a great deal of emotion, and I'm going to call it luminosity rise up in me as you ask that question, Gemma, because honestly, what I feel like I would say is you are so beautiful and you are so filled with potential.

And whatever you may think about yourself now, whatever you may think are your limitations or that you weren't given certain things, I mean, all of that may be true, but there is a part of you that is, you know, inviolately, I mean, untouched, just beauty within you.

And I really hope that you will allow yourself to be supported by people who care about you and see you, and by learning that stimulates you, and that you will allow this part of you to come out, because you are you will be able to contribute something to this planet that nobody else has ever contributed before or will again.

When you know, when you're in your twenties, I think Oscar Wilde said this thing of youth is wasted on the young.

I don't know if you've ever heard that.

Oh yeah, I just when you're in your twenties, there's still so much natural cheat you know, natural kind of vitality.

Even if you're dealing with a chronic illness, it's a lot different dealing with it in your twenties.

And let's say when you're in your seventies.

And so if the people who are in their twenties can really connect with the beauty that lies within them, with the potential that lies and really believe in it and form teams of people and friends that believe in them to cheer lead them on throughout their life, it's just twenty year olds have everything they could give to the world.

So that would be my deepest piece of it.

I think that's such a beautiful way to finish the episode, and also just a nice reminder that for anyone in their twenties, two is listening, which is probably most people like we are truly so young.

And I always really appreciate when we have people who have a lot of wisdom come on the show who basically say some version of that, which is like, slow down, you have time, you're can figure it out.

I find that incredibly comforting.

And I found so much of what you had to say incredibly informative and nourishing and made me see the world in a different way.

So I really appreciate your wisdom and your knowledge.

Thank you for coming on the show.

It's an honor, Gemma, thank you for doing the work you're doing for the world.

Oh of course, I'm gonna leave all of Jessica's links down below, including the link to her book, the link to her school, and everywhere else you can find her.

If you want to continue learning about breath work, she is the source for you.

I think she knows more than more than about ninety nine point nine ninety nine percent of the people on this brilliant topic.

Thank you again for listening.

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But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself, Breathe deeply, and we will talk very very soon,