Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

Welcome back to the podcast.

It is so great to have you here.

Back for another episode.

Today we welcome back one of our favorite, my favorite guests.

She has been on the show so many times.

She is one of the global experts on attachment style relationships how to find healthy love.

She's written two books, she has coached thousands of people, and has done more research on this than probably any other person.

The other day, I got an email from her about this new theory that she's been working on.

It's called the six Stages of a Relationship, and I just knew we had to talk about it because it is incredibly accurate.

First of all, it is so accurate how it represents almost every relationship we find ourselves in.

And I also think that learning about these six stages, especially in our twenties, what they represent, what they mean, could help us all be more realistic about love and also understand the highs and lows of dating and the highs and lows of devotion and being with somebody long term.

Without further ado, his hye is Tys Gibson.

Welcome to the Psychology of your Twenties Again.

Thank you for having me.

You're one of my favorite people to chat with and join podcasts with and just honestly catch up with.

So it's really nice to be here.

No, it's so lovely.

Every time you come on the show, and you've been on a couple of times, you're like my go to attachment style expert.

I love your in depth knowledge.

I love how you talk about these topics.

I've kind of spoiled my next question, which is tell the listeners a little bit about yourself and what kind of work you do.

Yeah, so, I to your point.

I definitely work in the relationship space by trade.

I am a counselor and coach and I've been in the space for quite a while, no more than a decade, and I tend to focus a lot in the attachment style space.

And I think that comes from growing up with a fearful avoidant attachment style myself and really pouring into trying to understand how to heal and I put a huge emphasis in focus not just on like understanding things and intellectualizing things, but actually rewiring because the more we can really dig into the subconscious and rewire our patterns and leverage neuroplasticity, that's where you get to see the real healing and change and growth.

And so that was something that helped me on my journey so much and something that I'm always really excited to talk about and share with other people.

And you do, like, just the way you talk about it is incredible.

And if you haven't listened to our other episodes, I think we did one on anxious attachment and avoidant very much recommend going and listening to those, two of my favorite episodes that we've ever done, to be honest.

But today we're gonna talk about this I guess new theory that you've come up with, this new concept that you told me about, and I was like, how come no one has ever shared this or talked about this or come up with this before.

It is the sixth stage theory of relationships.

You know, I adore a theory.

I adore like any kind of succinct explanation of like human phenomena.

Can you just like quickly explain this one for me before we go into each stage individually.

Yes, So the theory is essentially that every relationship has six stages.

And I saw this through working with tens of thousands of clients, that there's essentially a life cycle of every relationship, and it starts at a high level.

We'll talk about them in detail, for sure, but at a high level.

The first stage is the dating stage, and the intention of this stage is to really vet and get to know somebody and like see if they're a good fit for you and vice versa.

And then when we make a commitment and we move into the honeymoon stage, and this is the stage where essentially we have a rose colored glasses on and we're all excited and everything feels great and it's easy and it's flowing.

But we're usually showing ourselves still with a good bit of conditions.

We're on our best behavior, we're still people pleasing, maybe a little bit more than we otherwise would.

We're not as comfortable, and then we let down the mask and get comfortable, and that actually is what draws us into the power struggle stage.

And the power struggle stage you'll see where statistically most people break up.

But the crazy part is that if you don't realize that in the long grand scheme of an entire relationship, like if you're going to marry somebody and be with them for decades, perhaps the dating, honeymoon, power struggle are such a small snapshot of a whole relationship.

And if we don't ever have a relationship that makes beyond the power struggle, then people think that the whole relationship is like this high of infatuation, this low of fighting and more arguing, and it breaks up.

And the reality is that the power struggle stage is actually something that presents this really unique and powerful opportunity to know each other more deeply, to work through conflict, to learn, to hash things out, to learn each other, and to get into a rhythm.

And if we do that, we then progress into future stages, which become the rhythm stage, the devotion stage, and eventually the everlasting stage, which is where we have this true and deep sense of lasting contentment in the relationship.

And so we'll boil into all of the stages, of course, in a lot of detail, but the theory essentially is rooted in the fact that every relationship, point blank period goes through this life cycle, and there are specific rights of passage that we need to move from one stage to the next.

So in order to continuously progress, there's actually things we have to learn and get good at with each other.

And if we don't learn those rights of passage, we'll actually get stuck in a certain stage.

And the longer we're stuck in a stage without progressing, the more likely the relationship is to end.

So what I find to be really net meaningful because if people are struggling in relationships and they never really have a lasting relationship, it's always a year or two years they break up, you know, things like this, and they're looking for something longer lasting and more prominent for them.

Or if somebody is in a stage now listening perhaps and they're like, I feel like I'm stuck in one of these stages and everything's rocky and we're not progressing.

It's much less of the time that you have the wrong partner and much more of the time that you instead have the wrong tools and the wrong behaviors and relationships that are actually keeping you stuck and not allowing you to progress.

And I would make a really strong argument, having seen this firsthand, that so often people are like, oh maybe I'm not compatible with somebody.

Oh my gosh, what if it doesn't work out and they feel stuck.

And actually, once they get the certain tools that they need to unlock the next stage, things move forward much more effortlessly.

So that's essentially the theory in a nutshell.

Which I love.

And we were talking before I pressed record, and I was like, to get to be vulnerable and to be completely honest, like I'm staying my current relationship, Well I'm not current, just my relationship reaching well, no, my current relationship like reach a new stage that I never have with other partners, and like we've just definitely passed through this like power struggle phase where you know we're moving and like we really have to like know each other deeper.

And I've never passed through this stage before, and I feel like we're getting to the end of it.

And this theory has like opened my eyes to all previous relationships that I have ever had, and every single one of them follows this and obviously, like they break up at different points, but never beyond the rhythm stage.

Have I broken up with someone, Which is interesting.

And that is almost exactly how it goes for people, So once people I find as a general ballpark.

I don't have like really hard data on this.

I'm just pulling from like tens of thousands of conversations and clients over the years, but I would say generally you're looking at like eighty percent chance of the relationship really life asking for the long, long haul if you make it to the rhythm stage.

So at that point, it's because you've learned how to navigate, and as we dive into the power struggle and the rights of passage and all these things, you'll see and learn that if we can't get the important lessons right in that stage, that's what makes everything fall apart.

But if we get them right in that stage, it's what exactly prepares us for everything to come, so that we can thrive and stay connected and know how to weather hard times in the future if we ever go through them, or you know, be able to really build roots that are allowing a relationship to thrive and last for the long haul.

And I almost think of like a relationship itself, if there was a visual analogy, every relationship is like a little tree, like a little sapling, And in the dating stage, where like, oh, there's a little tree growing and we're so excited, and then you water it and it gets sunlight and it builds slightly deeper roots and we're like, wow, it's growing.

And then the power struggle stage is like the first storm that happens for the tree, and it's like, you know, there's a thunderstorm, and if we don't know how to navigate that stage, the tree can get ripped out of the ground.

But you know, if it's really windy, perhaps, right, But if we're able to really build deeper and deeper roots and nourish that tree across time, eventually the roots become so deep that even if there's like a hurricane, that tree is not going to come out of the ground.

And so that's really what this is all about.

It's like, how do we build those deep roots with the right tools, And that's what allows people to when they make it to the everlasting stage.

People report in the everlasting stage and not just having the longest lasting relationships, of course, but they actually report being the most fulfilled in their relationships.

And what's sad and hard to see sometimes is that I think everybody's seen this where you know a couple in your life or maybe you're that couple now and where you can tell people that are truly happy together.

They've been together a long time, but they're truly fulfilled.

And then there's other couples you see where they're together and maybe they're married for thirty years, but you can tell they're just not happy, like they're just kind of sticking it out and they're just you know, they're still fighting all the time and they're miserable, and it's like, well, that's not success in a relationship.

And what that is is it's actually they never left the power struggle stage.

So people can stay The dating and honeymoon are different time spans, but the power struggle people can actually stay in for the long haul if they don't actually learn how to move through it.

Okay, we need to get into these stages because I feel like I'm gonna I have so many questions, but I'm like, let's talk about the stages first, because then i can go from there.

The beginning with step one, which is you've got to start talking to someone, You've got to start dating somebody.

One of the key things to like look out for during this period that may predict like future compatibility.

Yeah, great question.

So in the dating stage.

The dating sage generally lasts about zero to six months, and it will be people will try to speed it along a little bit based on their attachment style.

Like people who are a little more anxious, they'll want to go from dating into honeymoon quicker, because the rate of passage into honeymoon is more about did we decide to commit to a relationship to are we just still seeing each other.

People who are a little more avoidant leaning, they'll tend to be like, let's stay in the dating stage forever.

They'll really drag it out and usually they're closer to the six month mark.

But the really important things to go in prepared for in the dating stage are number one, you have to know what you're looking for.

And truly, I think people really underestimate the stage and how important it is, because if you don't do the dating stage properly, it's like you try to plant a seed or a crop that you're trying to grow in the wrong soil.

Right, It's like, if you don't have soil conducive to growing the crop, you're gonna have a hard time.

And a lot of people that I would see in my practice is they would go in they would date somebody, they would have very low standards for dating.

It would be like, I just want to find somebody I'm attracted to and I have fun with.

And then they get into the space of trying to win the person over.

When they start dating them, they're like, oh, I just want to get them to like me and want to commit to me, and they put their focus and attention there instead of on vetting, and the entire purpose of the dating stages about betting, which we'll come to in a second, So they don't vet and then because they're in this like people pleasing stage trying to win the person over.

By the time you then move through the honeymoon stage, you get into the power struggle stage.

You're not set up for success and you're going to see all of your incompatibilities are more glaring.

There's going to be a lot of challenges, and so the first thing you want to start with to your question is like, you want to know what are my standards, what are my needs in a relationship, and what are my non negotiables?

And I always get people to start there and then really get clear about those things.

And then the second question, and you would think people know to just look for this right out of the gates, but they don't.

The second question is where should I be looking for this person, because you'd be shocked at the amount of people who will say things like, Oh, I really want to find somebody who's emotionally available and who's working on themselves, And I'm like, oh, where have you been looking?

And people will be like, oh, well, I guess I just kind of go out to the bar every Friday and Saturday and hope to meet somebody.

And it's not that there's no more available people at a bar, of course there will be.

It's just that you're minimizing your chances of finding the right person.

Like, if you're really looking for a healthy relationship and you're trying to master the dating stage of your life, we want to be looking, okay, emotionally available people, people working on themselves.

I'm going to go to like a personal growth meetup in my area once a week before, Yeah, exactly exactly.

So we want intent in that stage.

And what that allows us to do is be mindful of our own time, not waste our own time, and actually honor our boundaries and honor what it is that we're looking for our standards essentially in this stage, and once we meet somebody that we're interested in and we're looking in the right place and we have the intentions of what we're consciously looking for, the next big piece underneath that is you want to go in and be like, Okay, I need to start asking the questions that are going to get to the bottom of whether or not we're compatible.

So, if we're doing the dating stage right, it's about learning compatibility.

It's about being intentional to see if there's actually a fit.

And so what I often say to people is like, write out your standards, write out your your needs, and then go on your first date.

Just see if there's chemistry, see if you have a fun time, see if there's a connection.

And after that, you want to intend to ask one hard question per date, so you know, I know, for me, as an example, like obviously I've been married with my husband for ten years, but if I were going into a dating scenario, I would be like, you know, for me, one of the first things would be I want to know that somebody can work through conflict.

I don't want to.

I don't like to sweep things under the rug.

I like to hash things out that's extremely important to me.

So you know, I might go on the first date have fun, and on a second date, I might say, how do you handle conflicts?

I'm so curious, Like, what do you tend to do if there's conflicts in your life?

I might ask about like with friends or family.

If I hear somebody say, oh, I just don't like conflicts, I never have it.

I just kind of ignore stuff and you know, park it away.

I don't like to have conversations like that.

I'm looking for things to be easy.

I might be like, well, would you be willing to address things if it was important to you?

And if they were like ah, and I'll tell actually, I probably wouldn't go on another date because that's a non negotiable for me.

And so you get to get to the bottom of these hard questions, and it also draws out interesting and meaningful conversation.

And that's the whole point of the dating stage, is to get to know the person and see if they're actually going to fit into your life.

And on the flip side, where a lot of people also tend to miss the mark is that we also owe our own authenticity in the dating stage, and we have to let ourselves get vetted too.

So when we have these conversations, we also have to share ourselves truthfully and honestly with other people, because we have to let them see if they're you know, we're a good fit for them as well.

And I think too many people they kind of people please and try to say all the right things instead of the authentic things.

And what you'll find is, even though that might seem easier and more gratifying in the short term, it's actually much worse for the long term relationships chance of success because if we're people pleasing too much in the day stage and pretending too much that we're okay with things, we aren't, and we don't have boundaries that we actually do, or we don't have needs that they're actually really meaningful to us.

By the time you get to the power struggle stage, where naturally things start to come out of the woodworks and we show our truth there, you are so much less likely to make it through.

So to successfully the later stages, you set yourself up for success.

You vet properly, you show up with your authentic self, You share yourself authentically.

We know our standards and non negotiables going into the relationship and we try to look in the right places and those are like the big key rights of passage.

And you stop yourself from being hurt, you know what I mean?

Like at this stage, you probably aren't deeply emotionally bonded to someone and or bonded at all.

Like you know, you could get to the the like the power struggle phase with somebody and really like them and love them because like you spent time with them, whereas they're still the same person that they were when you first met them, Like if you were able to rea like we are never going to be compatible early on, like you save yourself so much pain.

I also want to ask you about this, which is something that I know so many people are going to be asking themselves right now.

How do I not just get carried away with the idealized version of someone during this stage, the version that I convinced myself could happen, especially I think around commitment.

You know, someone says like, oh, yeah, I just really want to take things slow.

I'm not really looking for anything serious, but let's see where things go.

And in your mind you hear, oh I just need to win them over, or they just need time, or you start hearing things that you want to hear.

How do you deal with that maybe tendency within you during this stage.

I love that question.

That's a phenomenal question.

Of course, you always ask great questions.

The first thing I would say is that we want to set a goal and an intention to not date people's potential.

And when I would have clients, you know, back in the day when I was running my practice, I would get them people who I would say, are you know, predisposed to doing that?

You know, the types of people who are a little more anxious, they see the best in people.

It's such a charming quality, but they're much more likely to do that.

I would actually get them to keep a dating journal, and I would get them too, and I would actually tell people, and it's a great exercise to do at home, is I would get them to after a date, after spending time with somebody, I would ask them.

I would get them to say, how is this person actually making me feel okay?

Because sometimes that question, when we're so into the fantasy and then we don't hear from them and we're anxious, or they're they're not great at communicating, or the date's not going that well.

Sometimes we cope by getting into the fantasy, and we actually leave the reality.

And when we leave reality and operate in the fantasy, we're out of our body.

We're actually not in our body.

We're slightly dissociated.

We're up here in our mind and our fantasy and we forget to feel in our body what's actually happening, and so, hey, how is this person actually making me feel?

It's a really good place to you anchor you back in your body.

The amount of times I would see people in very intermittent relationships or relationships where people weren't showing up and they're chasing and then you say, well, how is this person actually making you feel?

And they're like, oh, I'm actually anxious all the time.

I'm actually like having a hard time sleeping at nights and stating this person, Oh my god.

You know, so it really anchors you.

It's a really good question to ask yourself.

And then I get people to rate.

You know, you go in, you track your standards, you track your needs, and as you're vetting them, you're journaling about it.

Are they actually showing up for this?

And if you're seeing oh they could or maybe they will in the future.

As you're journaling these things out, we have to keep coming back to the reality are they are they doing these things now?

Because when we you know, whenever we're vetting somebody, we absolutely unequivocally have to be betting their behavior, not their words.

And that is the trick to vetting properly.

If we vet their behavior, it's what they're already doing.

And it's interesting because your behavior is who you actually are.

Your behavior, you're your subconscious habituated patterns, and your subconscious makes up ninety five plus percent of all of your beliefs and thoughts and emotions and actions.

And so when you're moving from a place of behavior, Oh, this person is being consistent and how they text good, This is how they're showing up.

Oh, this person is emotionally available and really listening and being present on dates.

Okay, great, this is how they're showing up versus in my desires or what I would hope to see in their words they say, oh, yeah, I'll try to text you more often, no problem, But they don't.

Right, Well, then that's in their desires or their words, it's not in their behavior.

So when we're vetting, that's one of the best things to really keep us anchored in the truth and in the reality, so we don't get carried away from the fantasy.

And just the last thing I would say to that too, it was like, such a good question is if you find yourself being the person who has the tendency to get carried away and want to be chosen and want to win the person over, and you're prioritizing that, we also have to ask ourselves, what in me feels so safe and comfortable in that, Why do I keep lee myself and chasing and wanting to be chosen and prioritizing the need to be chosen over how I'm actually feeling how much my needs are actually met.

And sometimes it's because we had a childhood where we felt like that.

Sometimes it's because that's what's familiar and comfortable for us and that's safe.

Or sometimes it's because you know, we're just caught in this huge wound if fearing not being good enough, and if we see those big things popping out, then it's a really good time to dig into those things, maybe do some rewiring or some healing around those core beliefs so that we can free ourselves from continuously enacting those patterns.

Honestly amazing spot on advice as someone who definitely used to have a tendency to be chosen and then changed the way I approached those situations.

It works, It definitely does exact.

Okay, so we've we've vetted well, we've done our job.

We've been very good at getting people's references, getting people's character references, understanding people's like core motivations and who they are.

What does it take to move into the honeymoon stage?

And what does this stage feel like?

And how does it feel differently to the stages before and Aftah.

Yeah, great questions.

So so coming out of the dating stage, and I think it's so important to like that really properly.

I also want to say one thing too, because sometimes I notice people will be like, oh, it's like a job interview.

Like, you don't want dating to be a job interview.

That's not the goal.

So you want to make sure that you're That's why I always say, like, ask one question per date, because then you can have fun and be present and do your thing.

But you're constantly getting you're moving the needle, you're constantly learning a little bit of the important information.

So generally we tend to once we feel like we've got a really good grasp of that, and once we feel like the other person you can tell has a grasp of you.

What you'll start to see as you enter towards the honeymoon stage is it's marked by spending more time with somebody.

Usually we're speaking to them quite consistently at this point, like almost every day or every day a lot of times as well.

It's like you'll spend a couple of nights a week with them.

You're you're you know, spending a lot of your time together, and you can tell, well, you know, there's not really room for somebody to be doing this with multiple people in their lives or you know, how they hold down a job and date like this at the same time.

You know there's two it's a lot of time commitment, and so once we see this progress towards that, usually around the three to four month mark is sort of the healthy space where you've had the chance to collect enough information.

As soon as there is a commitment in a relationship, so hey, we're going to be together, we're going to be exclusive, it's just going to be us dating each other.

Once there's a conversation that is the exact right of passage that moves you into the honeymoon stage.

So once there's an actual conversation, we've decided to commit to each other, we're going to be with each other than there you are.

You're in the honeymoon stage.

Now.

Some people do try to move there a little earlier, some people do move there a little later, But three to four months is usually the best zone for people.

I find the most securely attached people actually move from that space, and it's kind of the sweet spot.

And the honeymoon stage then becomes Okay, you're officially in this relationship, and we'll be a little more vulnerable with each other.

We'll be a little more open with each other with our feeling specifically expressing love, care, excitement, making longer term plans like maybe to go on a trip or a vacation.

You know, there will be this sort of presence kind of exactly exactly you know, there's this increase of bringing this person into your life, introducing them to your friends, sharing more of your internal world with them, and it's a really beautiful phase.

And in this phase specifically, what's really interesting is you can see that people they have elevated oxytocin in this stage, which is the bonding neurochemical.

They have elevated dopamine, which is the motivation neuro chemical.

And what's interesting about this is have you ever noticed how people in the the honeymoon stage, you're always like motivated to go out with them and do things with them.

Let's go to dinner, let's go here, and.

The constantly you're always talking about them with your friends and family.

I have a friend who's in this stage right now.

Love it a bit, but you came up for dinner last night and I was like, I cannot, I can't hear about him anymore.

I'm so sorry, but she's like so obsessed.

Yeah, exactly.

And so we have all of this like neurochemical ca cocktail of things.

We even have the phenyl appalalamine neurochemical, which is all about attraction.

So we have all of this like bonding, attraction, motivation, and you'll see it in people's behavior and it's a really beautiful stage.

And after the zero to six months of somewhere in that range of dating, we then move into about a year to a year and a half of honeymoon.

And interestingly enough, this is often where a lot of people will get engaged, get married.

You know, I've seen a lot of yeah and j at the amount of people who I when I was back in the day when I was running my practice, before I went into all the online space, I would have so many clients who would say, tays, I married my wife and then after two years, as soon as after we got married, she turned into a monster, or I'm married my husband.

As soon as I got married, he turned into someone he never was.

And people would get confused because honestly a lot of people would think I'd say like roughly ten percent of people would get married in the honeymoon stage then move into the power struggle stage after marriage and think that their spouse like tricked them into marrying them, or pretended to be someone that they weren't and that they were truly the secret like monster buying closed doors.

And when people when I would explain to people, no, no, no, you just it's too early.

You never made it into the power struggle stage.

This as natural, this is normal.

You have to learn to navigate these things that are coming up.

The amount of relief people would have of like, oh, it's a stage, It's not that I was tricked, you know, and a lot of people would feel almost a sense of betrayal when you move into the power struggle stage, because you know, you could date somebody, feel really good about them, getting engaged at nine months or a year, get married, you know, half a year later, and you're still in your honeymoon.

So so at this point of time, this is usually that next year to year and a half, and well, actually, you know, it's a beautiful time.

It's lots of fun, all these great things.

But something else really important to note is that people are still moving from more conditionally based love because you haven't had to have the hard conversations show and share a lot of your deep interferes and flaws the way that you will just mourn the power struggle stage.

And so you slow the mask on a little bit.

You're you're still kind of a little on your best behavior and maybe kind of thinking about what you're going to really show or share with the person.

And so once we start getting really comfortable, and once we start letting down the mask and letting somebody in, when we get into that space of comfort, all of those neurochemicals actually reduce.

Okay, so the Fennel ethalalamine and the oxytose and the dopamine.

We start getting more comfortable, we enter into the power struggle.

And it's precisely this that actually triggers off the power struggle itself, because we'll start saying, hey, actually, that's not okay with me.

Actually that's a boundary for me.

Actually I know I said I like this, but I don't.

As soon as people start sharing more of their deep inner world, it's a crisis for people, but it's also an opportunity.

It's like, there's this challenge because now we're seeing all these in depth insights into somebody and we have to figure out how to and that can be really hard at first, but you're also getting this deep opportunity to see into somebody way more that you love and to let them into your world way more and to share your authenticity at a deeper level with them.

So if we do the power struggle right, then things can can be really beautiful and a lot of richness in the relationship can come out of that.

But really that marked right of passage from the honeymoon to the power struggle as you start getting more comfortable, and as soon as get more comfortable, the mask drops more and that will be what triggers off the power struggle stage.

Okay, I'm so excited to ask you some follow up questions because I have them, of course, But we are going to take a short break here.

When we come back, we're going to talk more about the power struggle stage, rhythm stage, devotion stage.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

So I kind of mentioned I, me and my partner have been together for almost three years, and we definitely hit the power struggle stage recently.

Right we are in the process of moving overseas together and all these like big milestones happened, And there was definitely a part of me when this friction started emerging where I was like, oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, like this we've made like maybe this relationship isn't right, or that like maybe we don't we're not compatible.

Having like kind of now probably moved a little bit more over this hill.

Why do you think this stage has to happen and why do you think a lot of people break up in this stage, whether rightly or wrongly.

So, yeah, such a great question.

So to your point, every single person pretty much across the boards, even securely attached people they have moments of those thoughts in the power struggle stage.

So I think that's one of the most important things to say, is that, like when you said, all is this right?

Are we are we compatible?

Is this working?

Like that is so normal?

And that's every person's experience, and it's because we have this friction in this stage.

And so you know, obviously there's a difference if somebody's like having these explosive arguments every day all day and they're miserable and then they're asking those questions.

But there is a natural just like when we we go through stages of life, sometimes we question ourselves and different things.

Oh, you know, maybe you start a new career, Wait, can I really do this?

Am I on the right track?

You know?

There's these natural sort of insecurities that pop up when we have problems, and I find that to be one of the most relieving things for people to hear, because you know, people would happen.

One of the biggest reasons people break up in that stage is they take those thoughts so seriously and then they start catastrophizing and magnifying, and then they see everything through that lens and they're like, see, oh my gosh, we're not compatible.

I knew it, and then they they like play into it more and more, and then the other person's doing the same thing, and then we have this vicious cycle that happens when in reality, I find that if people just knew that, hey, this stage is going to be a little bit confronting, you're gonna have moments at times in the stage, especially when it starts off, where there's doubts and you question the relationship, just like if you start a new career and it's a learning curve, you're gonna be like, wait, am I good enough to do this?

Like we do that and it's human and it's so normal.

So I just that's a huge thing first, and then going into it.

The stage is necessary because it is I think it's such a beautiful stage.

People don't like to hear that when they're in it, but yeahle stage because people get this opportunity to move the needle from more conditionally based love to more unconditionally based love.

And so often people would say to me, ohday, what if I want to stay in the honeymoon stage forever?

And I'm like, do you want to just conditionally love your partner forever?

Like is that because even though it's scary, you know, you get to see into this person, You get to like really learn about their fears and their flaws and their needs more deeply.

And you'll have to learn to move out of the stage and move through the stage effectively.

How to navigate conflict, how to be vulnerable.

One of the biggest reasons people break up to the second part of your question is that you you actually will not be able to make it out of the stage unless you learn vulnerability.

And I remember when when I joined you on an episode a while back and you shared it on the episode, and it was such a touching way you shared it, and you talked about like sort of being vulnerable and sharing something that was vulnerable for you and it going well, and just having this sort of like wow like moment of receiving that, and you can think back, you know, for anybody who's ever been through that, the moment before you're vulnerable for the first time with somebody in a pretty meaningful way, it's terrifying, it's so scary, But the moment when you had the conversation that goes well, it's a huge breakthrough.

And once you do that once and then twice and then a few more times, and now you're both doing it with each other.

You're literally building such deep roots for your tree, Like you're truly getting into a space where like the roots are building and they're growing and they're becoming.

They're making the tree so much more unshakeable.

And so you know, once you get into that space, it's it's yes a crisis because there's hard things that will come up, and it's marked by you know, bisically, people will argue more at the beginning.

You'll see if you can almost graph relationships.

You go dating honeymoon, there's this peak of infatuation power struggle.

It's like all this fighting and then the conflict goes way down and the whole point of the power struggle and there's really like four major rights of passage, Like we have to get these four things right or we'll stay stuck in the power struggle forever or the relationship will end within it.

Number one is vulnerability.

Okay, so learning to actually share your inner world vulnerably.

I'll tell a story here for a second.

I had this client once and she was like this lovely, amazing, just beautiful human being, had like all these great qualities put a lot of pressure on herself to be perfect in every way, like so put together, so precise about everything, had a great job, everything on paper, and she never ever could make it out of the power struggle stage with people, and she just wanted a loving, long term relationship.

But when we looked into her childhood, what we found is that she had a father who was quite narcissistic and always made her feel like second guessing herself, and she had to be perfect to get love from him and all these things, so she never would let somebody see her in her imperfections, and when people would break up with her in relationships, the common theme is people would say, I feel like I still don't know who you are, and I feel like we're like not getting anywhere.

Yeah, And it's truly no matter how quote unquote perfect somebody is, or how well they have their life together or how you know, you name it, if we can't get vulnerable.

Vulnerability is exactly what moves us from infatuation to real love.

And you could make a pretty strong argument that even though we can love in the dating and honeymoon stage, it's still kind of an infatuation based love.

It's still rooted in infatuation.

And you know, when we move into the power struggle and we really deeply let somebody in and really let ourselves be seen and really learn about what each other's sensitivities are and fears, that vulnerability breeds much more unconditionally based love and we get this opening into that.

And so vulnerability is a huge right of passage, and vulnerability then goes with us deeply learning how to meet each other's needs.

Number two and number three is like really learning how to navigate conflict around each other's the fears and needs together.

And so as an example, you know, you can think, let's say there's a couple and let's say one person in the couple is somebody who needs a lot of presence.

They want somebody to be attuned to them and be present with them, and they really value like depth of emotional connection.

And let's say we have another person in the couple who, you know, maybe that's a big need for the one person and maybe the other person they really need gentle communication when they're getting feedback.

Maybe they are a little sensitive to criticism, and they don't take criticism or feedback that well.

They kind of you know, it wounds them a little bit and they're sensitive to it.

So you know, in this particular case, those could be issues where if one person's not that present and one person is a little more harsh or critical with their words, if somebody doesn't know there's a power struggle stage and know how to navigate it, then they could break up.

But instead, if we have the ability to talk about these things, and the person who's sensitive to feedback might say, hey, I want to try to hear feedback from you, but can you be a little more gentle in your delivery because you know it's a little hard for me sometimes and it takes a certain degree of vulnerability to say that.

But then if the other person is willing to do that work and meet them on that and practice that.

And then if the person who you know, say, the other half of the couple is going and okay, I'll work with my delivery.

I'll be a little more gentle and considerate for sure.

And also I need you to be a little more present sometimes, you know, somebody being present and you know, really listening is really important to me, and the other person is okay, and I'll work on that too.

We're not going to be perfect at it all of a sudden.

You know, it takes a little bit of time to practice and work these things through.

But once they actually meet in this in a middle ground, that's precisely when it's like, okay, now we're building really powerful roots.

Now we know how to naturally take each other into consideration because we were vulnerable about these things.

We heard each other each other's fears or flaws or sensitivities, we heard each other's needs.

And now that equips us to properly navigate conflict.

And so when conflict comes up, if we can approach conflict with vulnerability, with openness, with acceptance in this particular case, all of these things start feeding together into us building healthier collective patterns.

Or we may have to make slight compromises on each side.

But what's so interesting here is a lot of people in the power struggle stage will say, yeah, I have to learn to navigate conflict a little bit more.

In the power struggle stage, I have to There's why do we have to hash everything out or talk about everything.

It's only for a period of time.

You'll have more conversations and more arguments because you're fusing your inner world.

You have to talk about all these things that you don't know about each other yet, but once you naturally Okay, so let's pretend it's me and my husband, and let's say I'm the person who wants more presence, and maybe he's the person who wants conflict, you know, under criticism and better delay devery.

If we start doing those things and we practice them together and we get better at them, and I naturally am more mindful in my delivery, he naturally makes an effort to put his phone away and be more present when we spend time together, Then when we fuse into that together, it's exactly the fusing, and that's that fourth part that moves us out of the power struggle and into the rhythm.

Because now we're in the rhythm, we're in the flow of doing these things.

We worked on them together.

We both made compromises, and by the way, usually the exact compromises that will make actually grow both of us and bring us closer together.

And now in doing that, you get into this rhythm.

You don't have to talk about all these things so much.

You know how, you know naturally how to Let's pretend it's me and my husband.

I naturally know to be kind in my delivery with my husband, I naturally have practiced that it gets wired in and now it's just something I do.

And that's that's exactly and precisely when we start exiting the power struggle stage.

It's the right of passage of when we've hashed out the important things enough and we actually in these new habits in the relationship where all of a sudden we consider each other without having to think it through or argue about it or talk about it, and then we feel more loved as we each need to feel loved in a relationship.

And now we're in the rhythm of things, and that's what takes us out of that stage and into the next one.

Which all sounds honestly very positive to me.

And something I will say is you will be surprised how every single long term couple relationship that you know has gone through this stage, like every single one.

I've been talking to my friends so much about it, and they're like, oh yeah, like of course we had that, of course.

And the love that you start to feel for your partner is honestly bigger than the honeymoon stage will ever be.

Like the honeymoon stage to me and how I imagine it is like eating a big bowl of candy and like sweets and like malteeses and popcorn.

It's like so delicious, right, and you just want to eat and eat and then like when you move, I'm guessing now we're going to go into the rhythm stage.

Into this stage, it's like having like an incredibly nourishing home cooked meal.

Yeah, it might not like taste is like electric as a bowl of like literal gummy bears, but like it's so much better for you, and it does actually taste better as well.

Let's talk about the rhythm stage.

You've explained how we get to this stage by moving through conflict, being vulnerable, all those other rights of passage.

What does it feel like in this moment?

Yeah, I love your analogy so much.

I've often said it's sort of like the pleasure seeking versus the fulfillment.

Oh I love.

Yeah, we get this like exciting, but like fulfillment can always outgrow pleasure seeking, you know, like grows and grows and grows, and there's a depth to it and and pleasure always hits like a glass ceiling like okay, cool, this is exciting, but you can only really get so far, but the depth of love and care that you can feel somebody for somebody when you know them so well and you've talked things out and you let them see you so deeply and you feel seen and known and understood, Like it's just such a totally different experience.

I love that analogy that the candy versus the home cooked meal, which is more nourishing and better for you.

And yeah, that's fantastic.

So once we get into the rhythm stage, I think you described it so beautifully.

It's like you'll feel this depth of love and you'll feel nourished by the relationship in a really profound way, and you'll know that there's a sense of comfort there, the sense of peace, the sense of being able to rely on this person.

You'll feel like that person really knows you and you've let them in.

And you know, so many people they get stuck.

And I know I mentioned this at a high level earlier, but like so many people get stuck in the power struggle stage and then they they don't get the opportunity to think that relationships are more than just the highs and lows.

And that's another really important thing, you know, for people to hear I find is that just because you're going through hard time doesn't mean that that's like the cap of the relationship.

Once you can learn communication and vulnerability in these practices, all of a sudden the needle moves, like all of a sudden things change and you get to enrich It's almost like you level up in a really big way.

And so in the rhythm stage, one of the first things that happens is like you catch your breath.

Quite honestly, like there's a settling in, there's a fulfillment, there's a contentment because you're kind of coming from like high high of dating and honeymoon and then lo lo of the power struggle by comparison.

And then it's like, oh my gosh, we get to this middle ground, this harmonious space, this space where we're not having conflict, we almost like preemptively avoid conflict by just looking out for each other.

And this is the place too.

And I think this is another really important thing.

You know, when I was when I was a kid, and I don't know if you've had this experience, but when I was a kid, I remember being like a teenager and dating somebody and maybe even being in like a pretty serious relationship at like eighteen and thinking how could this possible?

Like how could this possibly last forever?

Like how do I possibly know I won't get bored in ten years or they won't get bored?

Like sure I like them now, and like we're all great now, but like inevitably things have to fall apart, Like how could you know you're not going to change your mind?

And I remember really grappling with that a lot when I was younger and thinking like how would you know?

But it's because I'd never been out of a power struggle stage or in anything beyond the power struggle.

And one of the things that happens when you leave the power struggle and you get into the rhythm is it's like you've just nurtured something.

You've just like cared so much for something, You've just cared for this relationship and you've been cared for and you've like developed something so deep and meaningful that now this idea that you could just get bored of it, or that they could get bored of you, or these to feel like superficial ideas, Like it feels silly to think that, And and it's because you put the work in and when we put the work into something and we devote to it, and we show up and there's all of this growth and progress and depth.

Of course, you don't want to sabotage or race, just change your mind.

The rhythm stage, interestingly enough, actually is quite short lived after the power struggle.

So usually after the power struggle, we have that that you know, the power struggle can last forever.

People can actually stay married for a decade.

They'll just like live and die in the power struggle.

That sounds you don't let that find me.

And then and then if we do make it out, though the rhythm stage is short, it's usually another six months or so, sometimes even three months before we move into the devotion stage.

And the devotion stage is where we start to really move into long term commitments.

We start thinking about like okay, marriage and children, maybe even like building a business together.

These really like long long term commitments, because you know, you can get to a space where it's like there's a you have kids, it's it's a lifelong commitment for the rest of your life.

Right, So you have this this space, and in the commitment stage, you'll see that we feel that we're in this rhythm, we're coming out of the rhythm stage.

We know how to navigate hard things.

There's a trust in each other that we can move through hard things together, and there's a security in that that then allows people to start really getting excited, to plan for the future and to make bigger moves.

And that's where we're in that real devotion stage.

Both people will be mutually devoted in this stage.

That's where you get like reciprocity.

Both people know they have this sort of sacred belief in the trust and harmony together, and that's the space that now people are like, Okay, we've got this.

I know this is the right person.

I can see myself building a whole life with this person for the long haul.

And that's really the prerequisite then, of course, to the everlasting stage.

Okay, before we talk about everlasting stage, a couple of things I want to ask you about Slash stick around in this space for a bit.

I find it's so interesting what you said by people trying to move from the power struggle phase into the devotion stage without moving either through the power struggle stage or the rhythm stage.

This is I have seen this.

People are like fighting, having terrible issues, and they're like let's move in together, let's have a baby.

And I'm like, if you if this is hard now, imagine how much harder it's going to be when you have find additional financial pressures, when you have a living creature that you have to take care of, like a baby.

I just feel like it just is so difficult to navigate with those like additional struggles.

Speaking of partners, I'm this my uncle.

Where you can come in.

When we get back to what I was saying, like, yeah, if you think, if you think things are hard now, like when you have additional financial pressure, when you see each other every single day and you haven't learned how to fight yet because you live together or have a baby together, like, it's going to get so much worse and so much harder.

One hundred percent.

And honestly, exactly what you said is like one of the truest things.

So so many times I would see people stuck in the power struggle, don't know how to navigate it.

They're a couple of years in and they go, Okay, let's have a baby.

And honestly, it's almost like trying to put it a sense of novelty on something that requires vulnerability.

It's like, let's do a new, big thing together.

And I would see countless countless times, quite honestly, couples who would come in and they had, you know, because they obviously ran a busy practice back in the day for quite a while.

And people come in and they say, Tice, we're here to do counseling.

We've broken up, we had a baby, and you know, we are a couple of years into clearly what was the power struggle, and they had a baby, hoping it would be the save all, and instead it broke them down right and broke them up.

And so you kind of repair those things at that point for sure by learning the tools and the power struggle stage that you need to.

But so often people have no idea that there's different stages of relationships and be think that they're going to solve it by just adding new things to do instead of actually navigating the core problems.

And so yeah, I just absolutely could not agree more with that.

Yeah, Okay, we're going to take one wall sho upbreak before we talk about the final stage, the everlasting stage, So stay with us, will be right back.

Okay, So you're at the devotion stage.

You know, you're very happy you're committed, maybe you're engaged in it.

You know you're engaged, and you feel like this is the one forever.

There is another stage, which is the everlasting stage.

And my question for you is, does everyone from the devotion stage get to the everlasting stage or why would people in the devotion stage still choose to break up or have a breakup occur to them before they get to everlasting.

Such a good question.

So I would say the only major reason that I've ever seen people break up once in the devotion stage is because of some sort of external event that's extremely painful that essentially causes an identity crisis in one or both people, and now where everything they built sort of gets destroyed.

So it sounds very dramatic, and but honestly, once you're at the devotion stage, almost every person ends up in the everlasting stage.

They start acting these things out.

But let's say, for example, that one person and I'll tell a story.

There's some sad ones.

You know, if people who I saw over the years who were in the devotion stage and then broke up and and and you know, in one particular case, this is one of the less sad ones.

But in one particular case, one person lost both of their parents in a year, right both their the less sad one, that's the less sad.

Oh my god, that's a tragic one.

I know.

Sorry, I should have said, like a trigger warning ahead of time, it's sad, but truly, like you know, And what happened is that person then spiraled into this really deep depression and then they ended up in a space where they weren't showing up for the relationship.

They were kind of angry, they had a chip on their shoulder.

They didn't know how to communicate what they needed from this place of depression.

They knew how to communicate and navigate other things from earlier, but in this depth of what they were experiencing, they were like, what what am I experiencing?

What am I feeling?

And so I actually ended up working with this client who came to me to heal from a breakup after that, and they didn't know about the life cycle of relationships.

They didn't know about how to process grief or there's sort of a lot in there.

But those types of situations where there's something really tragic and extreme that causes this person to not even know how to navigate their own lives and then they can't show up for the relationship, and then we can backslide into, you know, back in the power struggle and then break up from there if there's something really big.

If there's not something really big, Generally, once you're in the devotion stage, people move into the everlasting stage.

It's just about do we do the work necessary.

Even people who have commitment fears, and you think, okay, there's this big fear of commitment, would that be something that causes people to backslide Even people with big commitment fears, generally, at the point where you've learned to navigate things, talk things out, hash things through really well, those commitment fears, I sent actually don't get a chance to see daylight over time because you're showing up with such a commitment to the relationship to get out of the power struggle stage that you're learning like, oh, commitment is scary because I'm scared of being trapped in a relationship that doesn't meet my needs.

And when you know how to navigate your needs and talk about them and then you're fulfilled in the relationship, people's commitment fear just happens to go away at the same time because commitment fears are rooted in the fear of actually being trapped and not being able to get your needs in met.

So once we get into the devotion stage, you're extremely likely to move into the everlasting stage.

It's sort of like the inevitable next step and the right of passage that moves you from there into the everlasting stage is all about, in particular, acting out the things that you were devoted to.

So the dev devotion stage, you'll sort of talk about them, I, you know, share ideas.

We should have kids, we should you know, move into this place, we should get married, we should do all these things.

But what moves you into the everlasting stage is then that you're actually actioning them out.

You have your first you know, you have your wedding, You do all these things, and so now the everlasting stage is actually about building and creating a life together, and it's marked by things like, you know, merging your finances, having conversations about how you want to invest your money in the long run, or what things you want to spend your time doing, or who's going to be, you know, taking care of the kids, what kind of parents do we want to be.

It's marked by like these types of conversations that are much more rooted in how do we build what life?

Are we co creating?

What does this look like?

And really moving from that space in particular where you see you're definitely in that everlasting stage exactly.

I also feel like I'm thinking now about those those like the snares, like the things that grab people and stop them from getting to devotion and everlasting, and I feel like, also that might be a requirement.

I don't know if this is something you found as well to get through something that shifts your identity or shifts you as people that you still are like, well that's okay and we can grow through it.

And I was like thinking about them, I was like, you know, maybe not being able to have kids would be like a really big one that you have to decide, like can I do this on Like it's just really you know, that would be really difficult, Like having a bit of like a midl like crisis.

I'm sure happens to a lot of people as well, like losing like a career that like you were devoted to a natural disaster.

Like I'm thinking about all these things and I'm like, probably because they changed you and maybe they put you back into that stage as well.

And maybe that's why you see I'm thinking about like kind of my parents' friends now and like my like older friends, and these situations where it's like we something terrible happened or something so large happened that we actually came out of it as a different person, but some of them still get back together and they go back through this entire thing.

So it's like exactly, I'm thinking about.

Like two instances in particular where I'm like, oh, this terrible like or not even it wasn't terri what was just earth shattering like it happened, and then but they ended up getting back together and it was so interesting, like they went back through all these stages and they got married again and like all these things.

I'm like, wow, it's it's so it's so fascinating.

So you just nailed it.

So that's exactly what it is.

So you can have these things and the root of what actually can cause because because nobody really breaks up in the devotion stage, but we can backside back into the power struggle, and the things that would cause us to backside back to the power struggle is if you think of the power struggle as being rooted in our ability to communicate our needs, share our fears, open up vulnerably about our feelings, learn each other through that space, learn to navigate those things collectively.

Then what happens is if there's something just like you said, a natural disaster or somebody not being able to have kids, one hundred percent of these things, it's actually rooted in one or both people having an identity crisis that then causes them.

Even though you originally did the work, it changed who you were as a person, exactly like you said, because you have an identity crisis, and now you're relegated, just by nature, you're relegated back into the power struggle stage because now you have new fears, Now you have new wounds, now you have new needs in the relationship because you became a new person.

The situation or event changed you enough that the things you learned about the person in the power struggle stage in your relationship have dramatically changed because they have changed dramatically, and so now you have to go back through this relearning stage, relearning to navigate talking about the new fears, the new flaws, and if you do that, you'll then move back through the stages then you progress again.

But if we don't and if we don't know how to navigate ourselves, sort of like that client dimension too, fell into that deep depression and came to me after they had already broken up with their ex and they weren't looking to get back together at that point because it was quite a while after the fact, but they change.

They didn't know who they were in that depression, and so they then didn't know how to say what they needed.

They didn't know how to be vulnerable about what they were feeling or how to express it or explain it, and so they ultimately had to do a lot of healing and work within themselves to then be able to come back and be functional for a new relationship as a new person.

Yeah, this is so fascinating.

I could talk about this all day.

I want to ask you like two final questions though they've just kind of come up for me.

I'm like, listening to this, I'm like, oh, what would the listeners want to know?

Like what are they thinking?

The first thing I'm thinking is can you skip any of the stages?

Because there are people who seem to really get to devotion really quickly.

Great question, so you can speed them up, but you don't skip, so you know, you'll generally see for example, securely attach people who have like a very secure upbringing or who are are earned secure before getting into a relationship.

They can move into the dating quick quickly move through the dating.

They know what they want, they're a little more clear.

They might move from dating into honeymoon quickly.

And because securely attach people with healthy habits going into relationships, they naturally talk about their needs from the jump.

They're a little more vulnerable earlier on, and they're quite intentional.

They have healthy tools already that equipped them to navigate conflict.

You'll see a very short power struggle stage.

Secure people still go through power struggle stage, they just have a shorter version of it.

And then if you're looking okay, let's say somebody made a commitment within two months, so they went from dating into honeymoon.

Honeymoon lasted a period of time like let's say a year after the fact, and then power struggle maybe another three months.

Then you're in the rhythm another couple months and you're in the devotion quite quickly.

So you can see like a shortened time horizon for sure, especially if we date right, if we have really healthy habits for conflict early on if we set ourselves up for success by having harder conversations more vulnerably earlier and setting the tone that way.

And so you can see a shortened version, but people will still navigate each of the stages, and even people who get married and seem to be married from a secure base.

So let's say somebody for like religious reasons.

I have a friend, for example, and he proposed to his wife I think around six months, and you know, and they got married and they have a very healthy, loving relationship.

But it was a quick quick turnaround, right, proposed in six months, got married quickly, and even him people in these types of situations they got married early, they had health, like a really healthy foundation, but they still had their version of a power struggle stage at a point in time right when they moved in together and got married.

They had to like navigate it for a minute and have the harder conversations.

So you'll still see each of the stages that we have.

You can just see a smaller time horizon for different external reasons at times.

And of course that means that part of like the hack and the trick is you want to get your you know, you're healing done right ahead of time, so you're ready to date in a more secure way.

Because it just makes the entire life cycle of a relationship so much easier.

And again it's part of the reason that statistically like statistics show that roughly fifty percent of the population is securely attached, although that seems to sort of be on a downward trend, but when you see clearly attached people, they also report being in the long longest lasting relationships and being the most fulfilled and securely attached people.

They they tend to when they get into relationships, they say in them right, because they they they're well prepared for these stages earlier on, and so.

They also choose better early on as well, because they like, I like being about that, and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Like because they're not just going after like the emotionally unavailable person, you know what I mean, they ve exactly it all comes together.

And they they date really well, like they date with intention, and they won't put up with much bs.

Right, if somebody is treating them in a bad way, they're like, sorry, no, I don't I don't put up with this.

And so because they do that, they set themselves up for so much success in the power struggle.

So the power struggle is in this big, drawn out lasting thing.

It's this sort of short, little blip in the radar that's like a little tiny roadbump, and they keep it moving.

Yeah, Okay, I have so many other questions that I want to ask you, but like we we need to wrap up the episode.

My final question is the one that we ask every single guest who comes on the show.

I think I've actually asked you this before, but I'm going to ask you again, which is, what is the one piece of advice you wish you had in your twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked about today.

Oh my gosh, it's so funny, Juma, because as soon as you said it, I was like, I remembered exactly what I would say, which was what you asked me the last time, and I said to be compassionate towards yourself.

And I had this like flashback moment.

Yeah, but you know what I would say in my twenties, and I'll actually just say what helped me the most of my twenties is, you know, I was somebody who was like I grew up in chaos, and I was fearful, avoidant, and I had all these like wounds and all of it.

And I had a lot of what you would call injustice this as a kid, like lots of hard things and lots of really you know, pretty traumatic situations and things like that.

And when I was until my very early twenties, I held on too that really tight.

I was like, all these bad things happened to me, nobody understands, nobody, and it was my story of myself.

And I went through a sort of personal rock bottom in my life where I was like, oh my god, nobody's gonna save me.

I have to save me.

I have to show up.

And me holding on to all these hard things and then justifying that I should numb out or hide from things, or be angry or be you know, carry my herd around and have a chip on my shoulder.

I'm only hurting me when I do that.

And you know, one of the most pivotal things that I did that I, you know, thank God for, is I was like, oh, I have to realize that my personal responsibility for life is my freedom, and it's not my fault that things happened to me, but it is my responsibility to change them, and only I can do that.

And I really poured into like learning and researching and doing the work.

And obviously, like everybody who's listening to the show is learning and researching and you know, and setting the tone to do that.

And I think pouring into really doing the work.

If you come from like a hard background of relationships or tough things, it doesn't have to be your story for the whole rest of your life.

It can literally be like, Okay, great, I'm choosing to take responsibility for my own conditioning even though I didn't choose it, and work to rewire, work to recondition, work to heal.

And I really think that that's like the greatest gift that people can give to themselves.

And it just opens up the world for like a future on your terms going.

Forward, and it is freedom the way, and it is freedom and it's for freedom.

Well, thank you again for coming on.

I'm going to make sure that we leave all your links to your school and your courses and you and your YouTube, like every way and which way and which place you can find Taste.

I will make sure that you can find her because I love what you do.

And I love your work and how you explain things, so thank you again.

As always, you can follow us on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast.

Make sure that you are following along.

It's the middle of December guest month and we have so many other fantastic guests that I cannot wait for you guys to hear from, So if you're not already following us, you don't want to miss listening to them and hearing from them as well.

But until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, and we will talk very very soon.

M