Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.

Welcome back to the podcast.

Today.

I've got another little bonus episode for you guys.

So these shorter episodes are a little bit different from our usual deep dives.

Think of them as like little coffee break chats where we tend to just unpack a single term, a single theory, a single psychological concept that is probably misunderstood or just thrown around pretty casually.

And the goal here is just to give you something that you can kind of listen to on the go, to give you, like just enough clarity to be a little bit more confident when you hear these terms pop up, but also just like for your commute, when you don't want to listen to like a forty five minute hour long episode.

This is the this is the alternative.

Today's topic though, is one I get asked about all the time.

Sociopathy.

This is a term that is floating around everywhere at the moment.

It has been for a while on TikTok when it comes to true crime content, even like in dating advice, and often in ways that aren't exactly accurate.

So we're going to talk about it today.

What is sociopathy actually mean, what does it not mean?

And how does it different from somebody who's a psychopath or a narcissist.

There's so many different distinctions that we need to make.

But first things first, sociopathy isn't actually a clinical diagnosis in modern psychology.

You will not open the DSM five and find sociopathy listed as a formal disorder.

Anyone who tells you that does not know what they're talking about.

What you will find, however, is antisocial personality disorder or ASPD.

Sociopathy.

Calling someone a sociopath is more so a cultural term.

Historically it was used at times by a psychologists to describe a particular kind of person.

But now we call it ASPD antisocial personality disorder.

What does that disorder?

What does that come to describe?

So the American Psychiatric Association defines ASPD as a pattern of disregard for and the violation of the rights of others.

It often begins in childhood or early adolescents.

It continues into adulthood, and people with ASPD may find it harder to develop empathy for people.

They have a lack of regard for social norms.

They are often sitful, highly irritable, have some kind of conduct issue or disorder, and show more erratic or impulsive behaviors.

This is kind of what a sociopath is now seen as now Because of this impulsivity, sociopaths are often seen as people who are very reactive and very quick to maybe anger or hurt others.

It might also be unsurprising that they also have a lot of substance use issues.

One survey found that they're almost seven to eight times more likely to meet the criteria for alcohol dependence and fifteen to seventeen more times likely to meet the criteria for drug dependence, and the prevalence of ASPD in prison settings is incredibly high.

The amount of people that you would find who have had interaction with the legal system who would receive a diagnosis of anti social personality disorder or sociopathy if you want to use the old term, is around the one in three mark or In one study they did in two thousand and one, they looked at twenty three thousand prisoners.

It was one in two, almost fifty percent of people who are in prison.

We could flippantly call them sociopaths.

They would have a lot of the characteristics of this anti social personality disorder.

So that is really what we're talking about today, this kind of individual who just seems to almost know how society operates, to understand it, but not really know how to how to cope, not even cope, not even know how to act within that system, within a human system of empathy and of kindness towards other people and of respect and regard for other people's feelings.

Now, there's another thing that people often get confused with sociopaths or sociopathy, and that is psychopaths or psychopathy.

These two often get lumped together all the time.

They are not the same thing.

Psychopaths.

That was the original og umbrella term that was used to describe anyone with personality types that differed to the perceived norms.

But in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, psychiatrists began to kind of notice that just calling anybody who had a personality issue a psychopath was incredibly limiting in terms of how they were going to diagnose these individuals and the different expressions of traits that they all had.

And so that's when they really started to kind of kind of like tear apart or kind of delineate the different kind of conditions that fell under this umbrella term, and sociopath back in that time was one of them.

Psychopath remained, but there was a difference.

A sociopath is someone who developed this kind of antisocial personality because of socialization, So because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because of their community.

That is why they are the way they are.

Psychopaths the theory is they were just born this way.

They have this innate trait which makes them callous, unaware of others feelings, or just deeply detached but also manipulative.

So historically, sociopathy is about external factors.

Psychopathy is about something that is hardwired deep inside of you, and over time the lines kind of got blurred, and now we have this ASPD diagnosis which typically covers them all.

Now, one other thing to know about the difference between sociopaths and psychopaths is people are still using those terms around you.

Is that sociopaths actually can form attachments with other people.

They do love people.

They do get married because they care about people.

Psychopaths, on the other hand, are deeply calculated.

They are more likely to be successful, they are actually less likely to end up in prison, and they mask their manipulative traits using human relationships.

They will get married, they may even have kids, but they rarely actually have any kind of deeply empathetic and emotional bond with those individuals.

The other thing is, sociopaths are highly impulsive.

Psychopaths are highly highly rational, So that's really important to clarify psychopaths as well.

They will you will not find them in the DSM either.

It is still kind of a term that is used, especially in forensic psychology and criminology, especially for people who researching and trying to understand criminal behavior and the causes and the patterns and the societal impact of crimes.

But as of right now, you could not walk into a doctor's office and say and or exhibit signs of sociopathy or psychopathy and get that as your label.

It's a lot more casual.

So why are these words still used, but also why are they so misused?

Why do we come across someone who maybe we don't like he was maybe a little bit mean, maybe a little bit manipulative, and just be like that person is a psychopath.

That person is a sociopath.

A lot of it comes down to this thing called language drift.

This is when a word starts in one context but kind of gets stretched until the point where its meaning is completely different from how it was originally used.

Part of why the term sociopath has experienced this language drift and has made it into pop culture and our daily psychobabble is because it really does describe the worst of the worst, and it sounds really dramatic.

It has weight, it has an edge.

Calling your ex a sociopath feels more powerful, maybe even more validating, than just saying or describing them based on their behaviors, you know, saying they were manipulative, they didn't treat me with respect.

When you then give that person a label and say they were a sociopath, it feels like you legitimize what you went through by giving their pattern of behavior a more serious and recognizable, socially recognizable label.

That makes people really go likeugh and take a step back, like a sociopath, well, that's scary, that's what serial killers are.

Pop culture has also poured a lot of fuel on the fire.

Think about a lot of TV shows like Villain l In, Killing Eve, Joe Goldberg in You Like, the entertainment industry is so good.

They are profoundly good at writing these really fascinating, dark, morally ambiguous characters and people, and then the label of sociopath gets slapped onto them to kind of add to like the mistake of the story.

But you know, their behaviors are heightened for entertainment, you know, the stalking, the murder, the elaborate schemes.

That's not always going to occur in someone with ASPD or sociopathy, which is you know, ASPD is a serious condition.

And what happens in these situations is that when we see these extreme character depictions and we have this extreme language, it often just becomes a shorthand for new ones.

You know, what we really are trying to say is that is that person is dangerous.

That person is toxic.

You guys know how I feel about that word.

But that person is toxic.

That person may hurt you, may hurt me, has hurt me.

And because that complexity of that whole situation is hard to sometimes get across, sociopath psychopath makes it a lot easier.

There's also something about the mystique of sociopathy that just keeps people using it.

Right, it feels like this secret insight or explanation for somebody's behavior, when otherwise we really wouldn't have words for who they are and why they are the way they are.

When we just are able to label someone and package them up as a sociopath, it feels like you've kind of cracked the code of why they act the way they do, and it does give a sense of closure.

It's like this is a neat box to put someone's messy behavior into that allows me to just be like, okay, I can that relationship is over, or I'm not going to be around that person, or they are this all bad individual.

It makes it easier for you to not feel empathy or sympathy for them.

The thing is is that a lot of people are actually not like that.

A lot of people have nuanced to their behavior.

They act differently in different contexts, not because they're a sociopath, just because they're human.

They have flaws, they make mistakes, and so it's why I don't always like when we use this extremist language to label something as this very intense thing to claim they can never change and to kind of not investigate why they may be the way they are any further.

And you may be saying, like, well, what's wrong with that?

If they're a bad person, why can't I just call it as I see it.

I get where you're coming from there, And I understand that, I think, because it loses meaningful when we actually really do need these words and we do want to use them in clinical settings or in settings where their magnitude needs to remain.

Also, just for the simple case of the fact that it could do a lot of reputational damage not just to that person but to you as well, is also something to consider and is why we should maybe be a little bit cautious with using these terms.

But the final argument is that the overuse of these terms really stigmatizes people who actually do live with ASPD, who actually do have antisocial personality disorder, kind of painting them as villains when sometimes they are actually trying very hard to fix their behavior and they also aren't necessarily always responsible for it.

Now, that is a hard thing to say.

I do believe that people are responsible for their behavior, but the way they are, the way they are sometimes was not their fault and is incredibly complex, and sometimes saying well that person's a sociopath, they will always be a sociopath almost guarantees that that will happen.

That is a self fulfilling prophecy.

Whereas when we talk about it as antisocial traits, or we talk about it as a personality disorder, a sickness, an illness, a condition, rather than destiny, it actually does give people the capacity to learn empathy the way that you could learn as skill, and to kind of change their behavior.

This is something very interesting that I've only really learned from researching this episode.

People with antisocial personality disorder do actually have treatment options, and although they are highly represented in the prison system and in addiction statistics, it doesn't mean that some of them don't actually learn empathy and learn how to be kind to people.

And if you've never had to learn how to be kind to people, you might think that's just like so unnatural and weird.

But for them, it's just like how they were born and how they are and there's a lot of credit to be given to them that they are willing to do that, And I know it sounds so strange I'm kind of it does sound like I'm justifying sociopathy or antisocial traits, but I do have empathy for these people that they don't have empathy, Like, it would be very hard to make the right decisions if you just had this part of your brain that just genuinely didn't work, and it would be very hard to then want that part of your brain to be switched on.

Sometimes I wish I didn't have empathy.

I honestly, it kind of sucks sometimes.

I'm sure that if you're a very sensitive or empathetic person, you will understand where I'm coming from.

Where it's like, you wish you didn't have to care about everything and everyone and every tragedy that was going on in the world.

You wish you didn't absorb other people's emotions, but you do, and that's a gift and it would be very hard to take on if you didn't already know how to do that or weren't born that way.

Okay, we're going to take a short break, and then we're going to talk about how this condition actually emerges, where it comes from, and what some of those treatment options are that we spoke about before.

So super excited to get into it.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back after this short break.

Okay, we are back talking about sociopaths, everybody's favorite topic.

So sociopaths, people with ASPD, they do walk among us.

But what makes them like this, because honestly, we actually didn't really know until recently.

So something we mentioned before is that sociopaths ASPD.

I know it keep going back and forth between them, We'll just say sociopaths.

Sociopaths.

It's believed that their lack of empathy is environmental and social, so it was learnt or conditioned from early experiences.

Also comes down to emotional regulation.

A pivotal moment for sociopathy or ASPD research came in like the two thousands and the twenty tens, where psychologists were really able to get down to the mechanism that meant that these individuals could not control their impulses even when they wanted to or even when it was hurting people.

And what they found was that studies, neurological studies found that in the brains of people with sociopathy, the regions that were involved in emotion and self control had very very limited, very reduced activity.

This was particularly in the prefrontal cortext and the amygdala.

The neural pathways in those areas seemed basically unused and underdeveloped.

These people had not learnt at a pivot point how to use these areas of their brain.

Their brain maybe didn't need them or shut them off for survival reasons or for whatever it was.

And so nowadays as an adult, they are impulsive, they are reactive, they are prone to emotional outbursts.

They have that reduction in empathy twin and genetic studies also provide some insight into why these patterns might emerge.

Researchers show that traits associated with sociopathy are influenced both by genetics, but they are switched on by environment.

So what does that mean.

That means that a lot of people who go on to develop ASPD or sociopathy they always were going to have a genetic predisposition.

Basically, there was a switch in their brain that started off that was always going to be there, and then something in the environment turned it on.

Now, the thing is, there are people for whom that gene will never be turned on.

They have a really great, happy life.

They go through childhood being very happy and being loved and so these sociopathic traits never emerge, but it's when someone endured childhood trauma, neglect, inconsistent parenting, bullying, that that basically it's switched on.

So someone's come along and gone, all right, time for this, we're going to use this now.

Many people believe that, yes, people are born with this, but it really takes shape and is influenced by your environment growing up.

What you might be thinking is, you know, why can't these people just learn Because they've mentioned you know, people can learn empathy.

Why can't they just learn not to hurt people?

Why are there all these individuals in prison or dealing with addiction that nobody caught soon enough and that didn't learn from their mistakes, specifically with the legal system earlier.

And I also ask myself that question.

The answer is that a lot of research shows that people who have this personality disorder they don't even know that they have it.

So this is the trick with a lot of personality disorders that are like machiavellian or narcissistic or sociopathic.

They just don't see it.

There's a part of their ego that protects them from seeing this difference between them and other people.

Or seeing that difference as being important.

They might notice patterns.

They might know that they constantly get into fights, that they struggle to maintain a job or a relationship, or that they're making impulsive choices, but they don't necessarily connect those behaviors to a personality disorder.

A lot of the time they may blame other people for that.

Studies have showed that the really linked to differences as well in self reflection and emotional insight, and a lot of people who have sociopathy or ASPD they actually can't do this thing we called mentalizing, basically understanding your own emotions through how your emotions affect others.

It's also called metacognition, being able to think about your thinking.

This ability seems to be a lot lower for certain individuals.

On the flip side, though some people are remarkably aware of their traits.

Take M.

E.

Thomas.

This is a self identified sociopath.

She wrote, They wrote Confessions of a Sociopath.

I've read that book.

It's amazing, and they talk about noticing early on that they had tendencies toward manipulation.

They were emotionally detached, they could charm like adults in their life and feel nothing.

There was all this.

It's quite sad to say, but these instances of animal abuse, and she realized they realized, like, there's something wrong with me.

People are reacting to this poorly, and she was able to learn how to navigate the world by assessing how she could get ahead through people's positive and negative appraisals of her actions.

This is what psychologists call masking, consciously adapting your behavior to fit social expectations whilst keeping seemingly more divergent traits under wraps.

So awareness can exist on a spectrum.

Some individuals are genuinely oblivious to this being them problem.

Others are hyper aware and hyper strategic.

There's actually some debate in psychology about whether certain antisocial traits, like having low empathy or having fearlessness, can actually be an advantage in specific context, which is why some people don't outlearn them.

For example, in high stakes professions like if you're a surgeon, if you're in business negotiations, if you're in the military, being less emotionally reactive can sometimes be an asset, though of course that is very controversial to say.

Obviously, you would want someone performing open heart surgery to care whether their patient lived or died, but maybe you wouldn't because then they could make the more justified and right decisions without the emotions of oh my god, is this person going to be?

Okay?

Am I going to kill this person?

What are their chances of survival?

Like if someone thinks purely in the math or the likelihood or the rationality of the circumstances, maybe it would make them better in this environment.

That is a debate we literally do not have time to get into.

In fact, I don't even think I have wouldn't even know how to get into that debate because it's so back and forth and so complex, But it is definitely something to think about.

So we've been kind of circling around this idea for a while throughout this episode, which is that there is treatment for sociopathy.

Obviously there is not a cure, but there are ways to help people manage socially, to reduce impulsivity, to improve relationships, and some people can function completely normal as you and I would.

These include talk therapy, mentalization based therapy, so of course, helping people understand their own mindsets and then project their mindsets onto other people, which is like a proxy or like a B grade version of empathy.

There's also cognitive behavioral therapy, which I think is literally used for every mental personality condition under the sun, but the therapy is never often just one thing, and it's incredibly specific to the individual people.

People won't even treat people with this disorder because they are of the camp that it's not possible to think.

I think it is.

I think that if this is the best thing that we have, you may as well give this person the best thing, not just for them, but because like all the people that are going to come across them throughout their life, if you could teach someone even five percent of the natural empathy that a normal person would have, that is going to make everyone's odds of being hurt, being harmed, feeling bad, feeling terrible a lot less.

But again, it is very, very controversial as to whether this is an option.

You can't just put every single person who has these traits in prison and expect society to get better, especially since they will get out of prison and they will learn, and they will mask and they will feel even more isolated and willing to harm other people.

There are so many nuances to this that has gone back hundreds and hundreds of years of how do we deal with people who just seem to not care about others or seem to have this impulsivity towards hurting people.

That being said, what do you do if you think that a friend of yours, a family member of yours, a partner of yours does have antisocial personality disorder is a sociopath?

I think first things first, don't panic and try not to diagnose too quickly.

Try and see them as a combination of traits rather than grouping them under this label for as long as you probably possibly can, because I think it will again stop you from panicking and stop you from freaking out and maybe actually give them the space to prove you wrong.

Also, it's incredibly emotionally charged.

You can do a lot of reputational damage, can do a lot of harm to the relationship.

If you just say you're a manipulative you're a sociopath, I don't want anything to do with you.

But if you genuinely do believe they are, pay attention to the isolated incidents and keep track of them.

You know, one off selfish or manipultive behaviors.

It happens in everyone, but if it's persistent over time, if it's repeated, deceit, a lack of empathy, impulsive or reckless behaviors are consistent disregard for others feelings.

That's really concerning, and you don't actually have to continue a relationship with this person.

If this is who they are, obviously I believe they can learn, they can change.

It does depend on who the person is.

If this is your parent and they're in their sixties, maybe that ship has sailed for them, and the best thing you can do is just accept that this is who they are.

They have no control over this.

Now it's up to you to decide whether you want to be in that person's life or not.

I think if you feel comfortable doing so, asking the person, like being curious about what it feels like for them, might also just help you and help you make a decision and help the relationship.

Questions like you know, what does it feel like when that like big emotion comes up?

Or why did you do that to that person?

What were you hoping to get out of that?

What does feel like when you're embarrassed?

What does it feel like when you're angry?

If anything else, it's just very fascinating to understand their psychology.

More, we know that sociopaths often don't connect to these social emotions in the same way, So maybe that will help you see them more clearly for who they are, without expecting things from them that they're not capable of, and you'll be able to make a more clear cut decision for yourself with that information.

Knowing that they may never learn these emotions, may never connect with you the way that you want them to because they are not able to.

Please seek some support, seek some guidance.

For more clarity on this, talk to a mental health professional who can help you navigate the situation.

Set immediate boundaries with immediate consequences, because that is like a very sure fire away for someone to learn what is and is not acceptable in their relationship with you.

Rather than betting on them having the empathy to be able to tell they just might not, you have to speak it to them like a child.

And sometimes it is just best to walk away like you're allowed to just be completely team you and completely like I just don't want anything to do with this, and yeah, that's actually okay.

You're an adult.

You know what's best for you and your emotional landscape.

If this is the best decision, you should do it.

Anyways, I think that's all we have time for today.

I know I said a mini episode.

We're at thirty minutes.

I'm so sorry, but this topic is just so endlessly fascinating.

I wish that I could talk about it more.

But I will leave some resources in the descript including some of the books that I've read about this, some of the YouTube videos that I've watched that are just incredibly fascinating interviews with people who have sociopathic or psychopathic traits.

It's just wild to hear how differently their brains operate.

But until next time, make sure you're following us on Instagram, make sure that you are following along or subscribed, whether you are listening on Spotify, Apple, iHeart YouTube.

Be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself.

We will talk very very soon.