Welcome to Love and Abuse, the show about navigating the difficult relationship.

From simple disagreements to emotionally abusive behaviors, you deserve respect and kindness.

All the information on this show is meant for educational purposes only.

Always seek a professional for your mental health and well-being and always pick your battles wisely.

I'm your host, Paul Colaianni.

Alright, I'm gonna get right into today's topic and before I do, I want to mention that I talk about or I use the labels abuse and abuser and victim and I don't do that to label.

I don't do that to define anyone.

I just use them because it's a lot faster.

It's a lot faster and a lot easier to say those words because I could say the recipient of hurtful behavior and the person who hurts and it gets a little wordy.

When you hear me call someone an abuser, when you hear me call someone a victim, it's just because it's faster to say it.

It doesn't mean that everyone that does hurtful behavior is an abuser, and it doesn't mean everyone who is a victim is helpless or disempowered or anything like that.

So I just want to get that out of the way.

I don't normally say that on this show, but I do use those terms a lot.

And if you've purchased the Mean Workbook, you already know this because I say that right at the beginning.

So you understand.

So I just wanted to get that out of the way because because mostly, I'll just say it now, victims of emotionally abusive behavior are the ones who listen to this show.

But there are many, many abusers who, quote, abusers, people who do the hurtful behavior, or people who think they're doing abusive or hurtful behavior that also tune into this show because they want to learn about it as well.

There are usually two reasons for that.

One of them is, I want to learn everything I can so I can I use them as argument points to justify my own behaviors.

That's the abusive one who wants to justify why they do the behaviors they do so that they can get other people to do what they want or other people to stay under their control.

So there are those who listen to this show and find a way to twist what I say or cherry-pick what I say and do behaviors that are hurtful or abusive.

And so we just have to be aware of that.

And then there are those abusive or hurtful people that will listen to this show because they don't want to be abusive.

They don't want to be hurtful.

They've come to a realization that the way they are is not healthy and mean.

And so there are those who listen to this show because they don't want to be that person anymore.

The more people like that, the better off everyone is, because once the abuser stops abusing, then there will be no victims to that abuse, which means there will be more people who will be mentally, or more mentally well, more mentally healthy and happy, or at least happier.

So the fewer abusers there are, the fewer people in abusive relationships.

The fewer victims there are, the fewer abusive relationships there will be as well, but that's not typically what happens because victims get victimized because abusers find a way to victimize them.

They victimize them in many ways.

Everything that I talk about on this show, control and manipulation and all kinds of emotionally abusive behaviors that keep someone powerless.

And when the abuser keeps someone powerless, that powerless person feels like they can't defend themselves, feels like they can't speak their mind or be themselves.

And so because they're in this lowered state or oppressive state, the abuser has power over them.

And as long as someone has power over you, then you better hope the person who has power over you has your best interest in mind.

It's usually not how it works.

But if they do have your best interest in mind, it's typically someone who doesn't want power over you.

So it's a deeper subject that I've talked about in other episodes, but I wanted to address the victim versus the abuser versus the person who is listening who doesn't know if they're a victim or abuser or the person who knows they're abusive and wants to stop or the person, you know, there are all kinds of ways to look at this.

And when it gets even more gray, a gray area, is when the victim doesn't know if they are the abuser.

And we're going to address that a little in this episode as well.

In fact, I'm going to get right into it right now.

So let's just start what we're talking about today.

The person wrote to me and said, I appreciate hearing your thoughts on my situation.

You said in a previous episode that if you weren't like this before, there's a 99% chance that you're not the abuser.

And I'm not necessarily sure exactly what they're quoting because I have talked about if you weren't feeling confused, if you aren't feeling responsible and guilty and all of the effects of abusive behavior that a victim will go through.

If you never felt that before in a different relationship, then you're probably experiencing an abusive relationship now.

So, I remember addressing this like that.

What this person is saying is that if you weren't like this before, there's a 99% chance you're not the abuser.

I don't remember wording it like that, but I'm going to go on and continue with this message and we'll see where we go with it.

They go on to say, I honestly don't remember if I was this way or not.

We were together for a few years and it was really hard to recall what being in that relationship was like.

It's been less than a year since it fully ended.

I know that I have some intense abandonment issues that made space hard, but when I look at how I handle conflict with my friends, it's like day and night.

Where I get lost is, 1.

She left me, and 2.

I'll process the relationship with my friends and therapist, and I'll be firm that I was a victim, or at the very least, want nothing to do with my ex.

But then I wake up the next day and regret putting her in a bad light.

I'm here because I have to see her every day and I need something to point to that grounds me in reality, even if it's determined that I'm the abuser.

We are no contact by her request.

I don't interact with her at all.

But she started adding reactions to my posts.

It's small, I know, but it's been causing me to spiral.

And now I'm confused again and I'm worried that I'm being immature by not doing the same.

I know what I'm sharing here can skew the situation in my favor, so I'll say I did love her for a reason.

Her mind is brilliant, her kindness, her kindness can be admirable, there's so much more to love, but now I'm just so exhausted and desperate to trust myself again, so I'm not so debilitated by confusion and her presence.

Thank you for sharing that, and I will say this: the way you talk sounds like someone who experiences gaslighting and abusive behaviors.

And someone who says, I want to go no contact and then starts commenting or adding reactions to your posts is gaslighting you.

So even if you were a little bit abusive or a little bit manipulative or you lied or whatever, even if you were just a little bit of those things, you can look at that or deal with that in yourself because you're no longer together, so you're going to reflect on that.

But from what you said here, I know for a fact, I'm being very, very sure of myself here, I know for a fact that that is gaslighting because anyone who goes no contact with you and then starts contacting you and has no other explanation why they're contacting you or even indirectly adding reactions to your posts is gaslighting you.

Now, somebody might say, well, what if they work together?

And the reactions are just to say, that sounds good, you know, something like that.

It's very unusual for that to happen.

It's very rare for that to happen when it's a healthy behavior.

People who want no contact, that's like a restraining order.

It's like saying, I don't want to hear from you and I feel safer when we are in no communication.

And so this is the way that I can move forward knowing that we won't communicate anymore so I don't have to think about you.

So for her to reach out like this, even indirectly putting reactions, tells me that I'm 99.9% sure there's gaslighting going on.

Even though she may not mean it as gaslighting, she may just be doing it to get a response.

So if you were to ask me, Which, coincidentally, you are.

You are asking me.

My response is anyone who tells you they don't want to talk to you and they put you on no contact, which is no communication, blocked you on social media, whatever, and then reaches out to you, they're trying to get something from you.

They're trying to gain something.

They're trying to gain an advantage.

They're trying to make you think of them.

And if you're thinking of them, maybe your heart will swell with the memories of what was, I guess, because sometimes you can have good memories of, you know, a lot of the times you have good memories of your past.

Often abusive people will remind you of all the past good times, which really sucks because they do that in therapy, especially in couples therapy.

Sometimes this will happen.

The therapist will say, do you remember times when you felt good with each other?

Do you remember times when you felt attracted to your partner?

Do you remember a wonderful vacation that you had and they'll get you in touch with those memories and it can also be used to manipulate you, not by the therapist, but by someone who wants to keep their power over you or lure you into an unhealthy situation again.

So, the very first thing that comes to my mind when you, this person who wrote, the very first thing that comes to my mind is that they contacted you when there's no contact.

So, that tells me right there that no matter what you did, They are breadcrumbing you.

They are trying to get a response or reaction out of you, and they're trying to pull you back into a controlling situation.

That's how I see it.

That's how I read it.

Could I be wrong?

Absolutely.

But I see this too often to say, oh no, this could be this or this could be that.

But I don't really buy any excuse in this case.

So that's the one thing that really sticks out in this message.

And then this person goes on to say, I feel like I'm being immature or I'm worried that I'm being immature by not doing the same.

No, you aren't, unless there's clear communication.

If she reaches back out to you, you know, she wanted the no contact, and if she reaches back out to you and says, you know, I would like to talk to you again and you have a conversation, it's your choice if you want to do that.

But if she is being abusive or manipulative or whatever, you just have to be careful because you might still be getting lured back into a manipulative or emotionally abusive relationship and you just have to be, again, careful about that.

But don't fall for the cerebral illusions that are going on here, the brain tricks, the kind of illusions that we might have that we make up in our own mind.

This is where many people will get sucked back in is when they make stuff up in their mind.

They might think, well, I wonder what that means.

Does that mean they want me to respond?

Well, I better respond because if I don't, blah, blah, blah, and they just make it up.

Does that mean they want me to respond?

No, it doesn't mean anything.

A person putting comments or likes or whatever on your posts doesn't mean anything until it does.

I mean, the person who says they want no contact because no contact means no contact.

And that was the most clear communication you've had.

And that is what you go by.

Until further notice, until the no contact is lifted or you agree on it.

But in general, abuser or not abuser or whatever, if there's no contact, that means no contact.

And if somebody comes along and puts out a breadcrumb hoping you'll follow it, that is not how you reestablish communication.

So I will stop dwelling on that one point, but it was a very significant point in the message that I received.

So I wanted to tell you, the person who wrote, that do not do anything back.

She didn't say, Hey, I'd like to talk to you again.

She didn't say anything.

So that breadcrumb I want you to consider as breadcrumbs leading into an oven.

You don't want to go back into the oven because to me it is a cerebral illusion.

It is a trick of your brain.

It is causing you to convince yourself to do something they want you to do and they know you well enough that you will reflect on your own behaviors, your own responses, knowing that you'll probably end up feeling bad or guilty, and then will eventually reach out to them, which does what?

It keeps you doing what they want you to do, which means they still have power over you.

And you just have to be careful.

You don't want to reestablish that power over dynamic.

So just be aware of that.

When somebody has power over you, they expect you to do the things that you would normally do in a healthy relationship, but they do it in a manipulative way because they know you'll do what they want you to do because that's how you're built.

And that's not a defect that is a healthy quality about you.

Your qualities are what somebody else can take advantage of.

Somebody else can take advantage of your compassion and your kindness and your supportive nature, and they can also take advantage of your self-reflective nature because they know you well enough to know that if they give you just enough to think about, you'll think yourself into a decision in their favor.

That's why the communication has to be super clear.

So, there's no guessing, there are no cerebral tricks or illusions that are going on.

It is all on paper or it is all spelled out for you.

So there's absolutely no way to interpret, which is what many abusive people hope you do, is interpret what they're trying to get you to do so that you end up convincing yourself and justifying it to yourself, just like you might be trying to do here by saying, I don't want to seem immature or come across as immature because you care about how you come across and you care about how you are.

And that is often taken advantage of by abusive people.

And so I'm going to talk about the difference between the victim and the abuser when they don't know the difference.

I've talked about this on other episodes, but it's always helpful to hear different angles and different approaches because I still get the question.

I'm not sure if I'm the abuser, I'm not sure if I'm the victim.

Maybe I do both.

Most of the time it's the question, am I the abuser or not?

And so I'm going to give you some different angles today.

It might be helpful if you've been listening a while to help you determine even further and give you an idea of what to reflect upon and what to think about if you're in any type of relationship or you have an ex and you're still thinking about your own behaviors in the relationship and you're still confused.

And that's what I want to clear up the confusion.

So in my experience, There are those who are willing to look inward and seek help or change.

I mean, there's one type of person.

They're willing to look inward and seek help or change.

And then there are those not willing to look inward and seek help and/or change.

The two people that I just described, one of them is almost always the abusive person, the other is almost always the victim of abusive behavior.

If you're willing to look inward and seek help and/or willing to make changes, you are most often, if not 99% of the time, the victim.

If you are not willing to look inward and seek help or change, then you are 99% of the time the abusive one.

There are exceptions, there are some overlaps, but in my experience, that's what I've seen over and over again.

Now, can the abuser have a change of heart and want to change?

Absolutely.

Can the victim be the one not willing to look inward?

It's very rare, but in some cases I've seen, the victim gets so angry or upset with the abuser that they go from willing to look inward and change to realizing they have nothing to look at and are done looking inward because they've been reflecting for months or years and they're done.

I've been reflecting my own behaviors for years and years and I don't want to reflect anymore.

I know it's them.

I'm done.

I'm not going to look inward anymore because I know where the problem is and they just look outward.

But they almost always with the victim of abusive behavior, they look inward all that time because they believe they can do something to heal or change or they need to do something because the abuser has convinced them that they are the problem.

But the reality is, after all those years, they finally realized, I'm not the problem.

And then they look outward.

Whereas the abuser never thinks that they're the problem, never looks inward and asks themselves, what can I do to heal or change or show up as a better person or a healthier person or stop hurting them or whatever?

They don't do that.

They just know they're right.

I know I'm right in my behavior, so I'm not going to heal or change.

I'm not going to reflect on what I need to do differently because I don't need to do anything differently.

They need to do something differently.

So they're not in a self-reflective state.

So there are those who are willing to look inward and seek help and or change, and there are those who are not willing to look inward and seek help and or change.

The victims have usually done so much soul searching and reflection that they get fed up.

Because the abuser has done none at all.

So there can be that breaking point where the victim never reflects on their own behaviors again.

And that's what I'm talking about, is that the victim can get to that point where they refuse to look inward anymore and the wall of reflection comes up and says, no more.

And that wall of reflection usually includes, you better change or else.

And that leads to another point, which is the victim is usually willing to let go of the relationship when they get to that, what I call their threshold, when they get to that breaking point where they don't want to deal with it anymore.

They are willing to let go of the relationship, whereas the abusive person isn't willing to let it go.

They don't want to give it up at all.

They just want to keep their control and keep the relationship.

So they'll do everything they can to keep that control over the person in the relationship and make sure that person never leaves them.

The abuser, the one who believes they can do no wrong, they rarely want to let go of the relationship and they'll often apologize and promise to change.

Please don't go.

Please don't.

They'll beg.

Please don't go.

I promise I'll change.

And at that point, there is some admittance.

There is some taking responsibility.

But is it authentic?

Will they actually change?

Words don't mean squat.

Typically, actions, you know, the behaviors, the actions they take mean everything.

If someone promises not to criticize you anymore and you never hear them criticize you, but they look at you in that way or they stay silent and you know that they just want to say something to you, but they choose not to, they might be controlling themselves, which is a good thing, but do you still feel it?

Do you still feel the criticism because a healed emotional abuser does not emanate that kind of energy.

A healed emotional abuser doesn't look at you like that, doesn't hold back.

I mean, they're still working on their triggers typically because there's something else I'm going to talk about in a moment, which is, you know, how long does it take to heal?

When is healing done and all that?

But you're not going to feel the same around someone who has actually healed, someone who is not being abusive.

You're going to feel a lot different.

It's going to be really weird.

If you've been in an abusive relationship and that person suddenly actually stops being abusive, you're going to feel it in all aspects, not just the things they say or the way they look at you.

They're just going to be a different person and you're not even going to know how to narrow it down.

Like, what is different?

This is something different and I can't tell what it is.

I like the way it's going and I don't trust the way it's going because I really want it to go that way.

But if I trust it going that way and it doesn't, then I'll just be letting myself down again with all this hope, all these thoughts that go through your head hoping the person who is hurting you stops hurting you, but they don't.

So any positive change that you see is very suspect and so it's hard to accept that that positive change will be lasting.

But the types of changes that you should experience are mostly feeling.

Like you're going to feel it inside of you.

And of course, you're going to see it, you're going to hear it.

It's a combination of things.

It's holistic.

And you'll know it.

You'll know it because it is different.

You may not believe it.

You may be suspicious, but it is a lot different.

So let me just finish this person's message, or at least answering this person's message.

They said that I'm here because I have to see her every day.

And I think they mean work because the breakup happened like a year ago and now there's no contact, but they must have to see her at work.

So that presents a challenge and now they're getting these likes or comments or reactions on the posts.

I think they mean like work posts or something like that.

And that makes it difficult.

If you have to work with somebody that you were with and they were abusive or manipulative or whatever, then it can be very tricky and that's when you just have to realize that you deserve respect and kindness, just like I say every episode.

You deserve to be treated with respect and kindness and that also includes respect enough to address you directly instead of feeding you these breadcrumbs.

So if you feel immature by not doing the same, don't.

You can choose to listen to that or not, but I'm here to say if you respond, it is very likely breadcrumbs into an oven.

And I don't want you to do that.

You'll just have to kind of block it out in your mind, knowing that this person just wants to gaslight you a bit or lure you into something that is not healthy for you.

And I don't like the idea that they're not talking about it directly, which just lends more credence to the idea that they are being manipulative or gaslighting.

And you said that you have intense abandonment issues, and because of that, they're probably taking advantage of that.

They probably know about that very well and to feel like you're having attention paid to you, to feel like you are worthy of this attention with these likes or reactions or whatever, that is part of the illusion that they are trying to create to get you back into a bad situation.

And I know that there's always a possibility that they're having second thoughts, maybe they've come to a realization in themselves, but even if that were the case, A, they're going about it in a completely unhealthy way by putting out these breadcrumbs, and B, let's just say that they have had an epiphany and they do care about you and they really want to establish contact with you again.

They should go through the proper channels and be direct, but also let's just say that maybe there's a possibility that the relationship will reconcile in the future.

And if that's the case, if there's healing going on and we just can't tell one way or the other, It's still better to back off, let them be who they are and go where they want to go.

And if they want to talk, they have to be clear and direct, but don't tell them that.

Just keep that in your own mind.

Now, if they start to ask you questions or talk to you, you want clear, direct commentary.

You want them to be clear.

You want them to spell it out.

If they say, well, I've been thinking about you, you might ask, okay, what of it?

And let them talk a little bit more, but don't add the illusions in your mind.

Don't come to any conclusions because illusions will give you the wrong conclusions.

Illusions will give you the thought processes that some people want you to have.

Well, if they've been thinking about me, they must love me.

No, that's not what they said.

Did they say they loved you?

No, they said, I've been thinking about you.

So it's important to get very specific so that, I mean, here's why they typically aren't specific.

Abusive people can often not be specific in order to not have to take responsibility for what they said.

Because if they didn't say it, they don't have to take responsibility for it.

If somebody says, I've been thinking about you, and you interpret that as, I miss you and I love you, then when you are in a relationship with them again and you have a conversation about it, you might say, I thought you missed me.

And they might say, I never said that.

Let's just start the gaslighting all over again.

So that's why clarity is key.

It's important to be clear in the words that you want to hear the words so that if somebody is honest, if somebody is authentic, you can say, this is what you said.

And you will also be clear in your mind because we can gaslight ourselves by making stuff up, by interpreting, by assuming from the things they said.

And once we assume we make, you know, an ass out of you and me.

So we don't want to do that.

We don't want to do that.

We want to make sure everything is clear so that when it comes up later, we can say, no, I know you said this because it makes it clear in your mind too.

If you fall into the illusion patterns that you create in your own mind, or maybe you don't, but a lot of people do, then what ends up happening is that you end up creating a reality and gaslighting, you know, a reality that doesn't exist and gaslighting yourself.

So we don't want to do that either.

So as I was about to say, if they truly are healing and everything might go well, then backing off and waiting for that clear communication and being very clear about what you want in the relationship Regardless of whatever you did and regardless of whatever they did, from this point forward, this is what you want in the relationship and being clear about it.

Don't be indirect, be clear and be direct.

Be very clear about what you want the relationship to be going forward if this turns into something.

I get the bad feeling that this isn't the relationship for you.

I mean, to the person who wrote, but I don't try to talk you out of anything because I don't know your whole situation.

I just want you to be careful because you don't want your fear of abandonment to be the driver of your behaviors and the driver of your decisions.

Because if it is, if you have fear driving your decisions and you get into a relationship because you're afraid to be alone, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

And when you do something for the wrong reasons, you usually get the wrong results.

You get the results you don't want.

So, the wrong reason is making decisions out of fear, or at least when it comes to relationships and choosing to come back or not, or choosing to pursue something or not.

If you're doing it because you're afraid of something you'll lose or you're afraid of something that you won't be able to get, then you usually end up in a dysfunctional relationship, a codependent relationship, a toxic relationship, or in this case, an abusive relationship.

So we have to be careful about that.

But as I was saying, if it turns out that everything is going in a good direction and they have healed and you are healing and you feel good in yourself and you bring your best version of yourself and their best version of themselves, they can both get into the relationship and everything can work out.

And on top of it all, or as part of the glue that holds it all together, there's a healthy love, then it can work out.

And that healthy love is what you want.

The healthy love is allowing someone to themselves, accepting them for who they are, and being okay even when they don't agree with you, even when you don't agree with them, and not trying to convince them otherwise, just allowing them to be themselves.

But Healthy Love also includes the ability to say, no, I'm not ready, and back off, where the other person says, Hey, I totally get it.

I'll leave you be until you are, or if you're never ready, then I'll accept that as well.

And that's my whole point regarding this.

If there is something in the relationship that is still worth salvaging, then a delay is not going to ruin that.

A delay just shows that the other person honors your timeline.

A delay that you give them by saying, I need more time, gives them the opportunity to show up as loving or selfish.

It really does.

Because if you say, I'm sorry, I need more time.

I might need six months.

And they say, well, I'm not going to wait around that long and I might be gone by then.

That's not loving, that's selfish.

It's selfish because they're trying to make you feel guilty and make a decision that you're not ready to make, which is self-serving for them.

They are selfishly trying to make you make a decision that you're not ready to make, and that is not loving.

So if you do have to say, I'm sorry, I don't want to talk to you now or I need time, Anything you say, anything you do, should be honored and supported.

That is love.

If it's not honored and supported, especially by an ex who is supposed to be crawling back on their hands and knees saying, I'm so sorry, I'll do everything, I'll do anything it takes, if you're not even close to that and you're getting some manipulative breadcrumbs or you're getting some mixed messages or They talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, then you find out who they really are by honoring yourself.

And if your honoring yourself is taking more time for yourself, someone who loves you is going to honor that.

If you say, Look, I may not want a relationship with you again, someone who loves you is going to honor that.

But someone who wants what they want and doesn't care what you want is going to get upset.

That you are making decisions that are right for you.

That's not loving.

That's them being selfish, trying to make you make a decision that works for them.

So just, I mean, that's important stuff.

If you can follow that rule, you will rule out a lot of the bad behaviors.

It's harder when you're in it, I get it, but when you're out of it and someone's trying to suck you back into it, it's important to keep this in mind, especially about the clarity in communication.

So, I don't know if I've answered this person's question or not, but I wanted to lay all that out before I get into this next part.

It's a little bit longer episode today, but I want to read this next message from someone who whose partner took the Healed Being program that I run.

And I'll just read you the message.

They said, I've been in an emotionally abusive marriage for this number of years and I found your podcast and I finally understood what was going on.

My Class D husband, in that this person's talking about the mean workbook, the assessment that you take is a 200 point assessment and I categorize the amount of manipulation, emotional abuse and control by classes.

Class A, B, C and D.

Class D is the worst.

So, this person's saying, My Class D husband is a covert, subtle, coercive manipulator, controller, very intense and then so sweet once his insecurities are calmed by my submission.

From listening to you, I got the courage to have one more fight and I asked him to leave.

He did so, but with anger and threats.

I suggested that he listen to one of your episodes and surprisingly he did.

He told me he contacted you and he signed up for your program, which he eventually completed.

And this person is talking about the Healed Being program.

And then they go on to say, Soon he came home weeping, begging for forgiveness, saying how ashamed he was.

He asked to move back in if he changed.

We gave it two weeks and I agreed, but in separate rooms.

He was very conscientious and gentle.

He changed overnight, or almost overnight.

I was suspicious, but open-minded.

Jump ahead some time, his attitude began to shift.

He claimed he was better and he would never go back to the old man he was, almost arrogant about it.

The turnaround arguments came back.

Everything was my fault again because he was healed.

My fear of him crept back in, and that angered him.

Last week he gave me an ultimatum: I drop my fear and fully embrace our marriage, or he's done.

As in the past, I'm worried I'm the problem.

I want out, but his belief that he did the program and is better now provides him an out, like his superior.

Does this happen to other abusers?

So this is a very powerful message because this person believed that their partner was taking the right program, doing all the right steps, but then suddenly started coming back to who they were, even though they said, or her husband said, that they'd never go back to that man again, the person they were, which is the right thing to say if you do it.

If you never go back to the abusive person you were, and you are on a new way of being and you've done the work, then the victim of that behavior should feel the changes.

You should see the changes.

You should feel almost worshiped.

I mean, this is what happens.

You should feel like somebody feels sorry that they treated the person they loved so wrong for so long that When they have this shift, when they heal, they feel so bad.

And they feel so bad that they'll do anything to make sure that you feel good.

That doesn't mean it has to go on that way forever, but it does take over a year at least, and then it continues on because the work is never done.

The abusive person who is on the healing journey is on the healing journey for the rest of their life.

I say this with experience because when I was emotionally abusive, when I was ruining my relationships, after I started healing, it took several months to go through my transition, through my shift to finally taking full responsibility to accept that what I have a problem with is my problem, not anyone else's.

That was the big shift for me.

If I have a problem with that person, it's my problem.

Not theirs.

And I used to make it theirs all the time.

I would make my problem their problem.

So if I was triggered by something they were doing, I would try to make them change instead of changing myself or working on myself or even honoring myself and saying, well, I can't accept them for who they are, so I better leave, which sounds selfish, but it's a lot more healthy to leave someone that you can't agree with or can't accept as they are.

So, I learned that instead of trying to control someone or coerce someone or manipulate someone, it's better to accept them as they are or if I choose not to, to leave.

And that helped me become more empathetic and also realize that I don't want to leave, which means I do have to accept them as they are, which again helped me with the shift and to become more healed.

But my point is, The reason that I said it's a lifelong journey is because it is.

I've healed a lot.

I mean, there's very, very little that triggers me now, but those triggers do show up.

And when they show up, I have to remind myself, it's my trigger, my problem, not hers.

I don't want to put it on her.

I'm dealing with something in myself right now.

I'm not dealing with her issues.

I'm dealing with my issues.

And that's why it's a lifelong process is that when a trigger comes up, even though you've healed a lot, you still have to deal with that trigger, not push your triggers or your inability to accept someone else as they are onto someone else.

I mean, I'm talking to the people who are abusive and think they've, quote, healed, because healing is not a destination.

It is a continuous journey.

So this message that this person sent me Thank you for sharing this.

And I'm going to give you a list of points that I want you to or want anyone listening to, you may want to write this down because these are so important.

If you have somebody in your life who has been abusive and they have chosen to heal, they have chosen to take responsibility for their own behaviors and tell you, you know what?

I'm going to heal.

I'm going to work on this.

I'm going to go to therapy or I'm going to go to the healed being program or I'm going to do all this stuff.

So that I don't hurt you anymore, so that I feel good in myself so I'm not carrying all these triggers and I can show up in the relationship as a healthy or healthier person and love you in a healthy way.

And so I'm just going to go from the perspective of the abuser who realizes they're abusive and wants to change and decides to heal.

So let's just say I'll use this example this person's husband took the Healed Being program and when they apply the lessons, this is what you should see.

They take full responsibility for their behavior without making you responsible for their healing.

It's very close to what I just said.

The next one is something I just said.

They understand healing is ongoing, not a destination they've already reached.

They remain humble and open to feedback, never claiming to be, quote, fixed or, quote, Better now.

I'm going to steal some of the words that this person gave me.

They don't use their progress as a weapon or proof that you're the problem.

They give you space and time to heal at your own pace without ultimatums.

They accept that your fear or your fears are a natural response to years of abuse and they don't get angry about it.

They continue doing the work even when it's uncomfortable or inconvenient.

They understand that real change means accepting they could still mess up, but they still need to stay vigilant.

That's in the line of I'm not perfect, I'm not done.

I could still mess up, and because of that, I stay humble.

That's where that lies.

This next one is when they're applying the lessons, they never claim superiority or act arrogant about the work they've done.

Imagine you've hurt somebody for years and years and years and then a light bulb moment comes on and you realize, oh, crap, I've been hurting this person for so many years.

What an awful person I am.

Wow, what have I done?

And you feel guilt and you feel shame.

It makes you very humble.

And in this humble space, you never want to be that person again.

You know, if you're a loving, kind, caring, compassionate person and you have empathy, you're never going to want to be that person again.

You suddenly realize, what am I doing?

And then you decide that you're going to go on a healing journey and you never want to be that person again.

How are you going to show up?

I know how I did.

I showed up as the most, I mean, this sounds anti-humble, but I showed up as the most humble person in my relationship because I know what a screw up I was and how hurtful I'd been.

Fortunately, my wife today has never experienced this old aspect of me.

She got the healed version or mostly the healing version of me, whereas my previous relationships did not.

But I started changing in my last relationship.

And so I left that relationship feeling like, wow, I don't know almost anything about how to have a healthy relationship.

And I need to stay humble and what that means to me is that I can't take people for granted.

I can't just accept that I'm right about something because I might be wrong because I've been wrong about so many things.

I have to accept that somebody else's perception of me might actually be correct.

I mean, the healing journey is a journey into humility.

The healing journey makes you humble.

And the day you are not humble is the day you stop.

The healing journey, which is what I want to tell this person who wrote, is that the day you stop being humble, and I'm talking about this person's husband, the day you stop being humble is the day the healing journey has ended.

And if you're no longer on the healing journey, you can revert back to old behaviors that you haven't healed yet, because the healing journey is for the rest of your life.

Talking to the emotionally abusive people out there, the healing journey from being the emotional abuser is a journey you take for the rest of your life, that means you stay humble.

That also means you're not blaming the person you've been hurting for years that is still working on their own healing.

You don't continue blaming them for any of the problems because you're humble enough to realize I might have something to do with this.

And if I do, I need to reflect on it.

As soon as you become self-righteous and you think that you know you're right and they're wrong, you're right back to where you were before.

And it tells me that you really haven't applied the lessons lessons, because when you're not applying the lessons, this is another set of points you may or may not want to write down, but if someone is not applying the lessons they learn, again, for example, my Healed Being program, they'll believe that completing a program means they're healed and they're done with the work.

That's not applying the lessons.

Another point is they use the program or they even use therapy as proof they've changed rather than showing you through consistent behavior over time.

If they're not applying the lessons or therapy, they get angry when you don't immediately trust them or when your fear returns.

They give ultimatums about your feelings or your healing process.

If they're not applying the lessons, they shift back to blaming you for everything once they feel secure again.

They become righteous about their healing as if they're now above criticism.

They expect you to drop your boundaries and fears on their timeline not yours.

They use their healing as a way to make you feel like you're the problem now.

They stop being conscientious and gentle once they feel they've proven themselves.

And the turnaround arguments occur where it comes back to everything becomes your fault again.

So if they're not applying the lessons, this is what you'll see.

Again, I'm talking about my Healed Being program, but this can apply to therapy, this can apply to any person who is working on their healing and stopping, or they're supposed to be stopping, the abusive or controlling or manipulative behaviors, you'll see these signals.

And so the signs they're returning to old patterns after appearing to change, which is what this email is about, the humility and shame they showed early on disappears and it gets replaced with arrogance.

Again, I'm stealing some words from this person's email.

Your fear of them returns, which is your body telling you something is wrong.

We talked about that earlier.

You feel it.

They get angry at your natural emotional responses instead of having compassion for what you went through.

And really, I should have rewritten that to what they put you through.

They stop taking responsibility and shift blame back to you.

The sweet behavior only shows up when their insecurities need calming through your submission.

They use the fact that they did the program or went to therapy as an excuse to avoid looking at their current behavior.

They give you ultimatums instead of giving you the time and space you need to heal.

They act superior because they did the work while you're still struggling with the aftermath of their abuse.

And the intensity returns along with the control and manipulation, it's just packaged differently.

So that's the signs that they're returning to the old behaviors after they have appeared to change.

Now, what does real lasting change look like?

This is the last set of points I want to make.

Consistency over months and years, not just weeks.

Continued humility and willingness to look inward when problems arise.

Understanding that your healing process is separate from theirs and respecting that.

Never using their progress as proof that you're wrong or broken.

Accepting that trust is rebuilt slowly through actions, not declarations.

Staying in the work when it's hard and even when they feel, better.

Real lasting change also looks like taking responsibility when old patterns creep back in instead of denying them.

Recognizing that healing isn't linear and they might still have triggers and slip ups.

And they will.

You know, they have to self-reflect when that happens, but it happens.

Two more.

What real lasting change looks like being okay with you having boundaries and fears without getting defensive or angry.

And the last one, understanding that if you're afraid of them, that's information about their behavior, not proof that you're the problem.

You're not.

You're not the problem.

And so I wanted to read this because there are people who have taken my Healed Being program and they have transformed.

Their partners are saying wonderful things about them.

Their relationships have improved tenfold.

They're different people.

I can feel it, their partners can feel it, everyone can see the difference, their friends can see it and feel it.

They know there's something different about this person and the person who has done the work feels it inside and out.

And they are humble.

That is one of the main lessons in the very beginning of the program, teaching humility, which means stepping back.

And this is something that I learned when I started my healing process.

I learned that I used to feel right about everything, and then I had to tell myself, I'm probably wrong about almost everything.

That doesn't mean it was true.

It doesn't mean I was wrong about everything.

It just meant before I just claimed a self-righteous belief or declaration that I was going to step back and tell myself, well, maybe I'm wrong about this.

And if I am, how else should I think about it?

How else should I look at it?

What other perspective should I give this?

And if I was wrong about it, what does that look like?

Those are the kinds of questions I asked myself because I was so certain all the time about my beliefs and I believed my standards were the standards to follow and that those who didn't needed to be judged, needed to be criticized.

I wasn't a nice person.

I mean, I was nice in many ways, but I was also emotionally abusive, so that mix was very toxic.

And so in order to change that, I had to step back out of my self-righteousness and tell myself, I might be wrong about everything I believe I'm right about.

And because that's true, that I might be wrong, then I need to question everything I believe.

Everything.

So I'm going to be right about some things.

I'm going to be wrong about other things.

But choosing to be right, choosing to stay righteous in my righteous space in my head was what got me in trouble and was what ruined my relationships.

So when I read an email like this that says, well, I'm right, you're wrong, pretty much, then I see that self-righteousness and no humility.

And so if just by chance this person's partner is listening to this, I'm not putting you down.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad.

I don't know if this partner is going to play this for her husband or whatever, because I really am recording this specifically for the person who wrote and providing the signals or the behaviors that you should see differently and telling you that the people who have taken my program that have done the work, they are different people today.

Like I can look at my past and say, I don't even know who that guy was.

There's a lot of good qualities about that guy that I've kept, but the rest of it, I threw it away.

It was not good.

I did not want to be that person ever again because it hurt people that didn't deserve it.

They didn't deserve to be hurt.

They didn't deserve to be criticized.

They didn't deserve to be manipulated or coerced or anything like that.

And so that put me into a state of humility pretty much permanently.

I don't always succeed.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, but man, I am just a different person today and I'm embarrassed and ashamed about who I was, but I move forward knowing that I'll never be that person again and I feel good about who I am today and I move forward with that.

And when something does arise, when there is a tiff or an argument or a disagreement, I have to be humble.

I have to step into that place and tell myself, I may not be right about this.

In fact, what's more important, and this is something I practice myself, what's more important, the love we have and the love I want to keep for the rest of our lives together, or me being right in this moment and subsequently making her feel bad?

What's more important, if I'm right and she feels bad?

That doesn't mean I always back down and make sure that she's always right.

It's not that at all.

But it does, again, put me into a humble space so that I don't turn into that self-righteous person who believes that being right is way more important than showing somebody that they are important to me.

And again, it doesn't mean we don't have disagreements.

We have them.

And I try to make sure that every disagreement leads to something better for us.

Because if we're disagreeing on something, that means there's either a miscommunication or there was something that happened that we both need to figure out and we get through it because we're both willing to listen to the other side and we're also both willing to take a step back.

And ask ourselves, well, am I right about this?

And if we're not, then we also admit that that's hard for a lot of people.

You're right, I admit that.

That's a good point.

I like to say that to Asha.

I'll say, if we're in the middle of something heated, I'll say, oh, yeah, that's a good point.

I'm trying to stay humble.

I try to bring it back.

And when I bring it back, if she makes that point, I mean, we get emotionally, everyone can get emotionally charged.

And when they're emotionally charged, being wrong is like the last place you want to be.

Or being made to sound stupid or you missed something like you missed an important fact or you forgot to do something and you don't want to admit that because it makes you look weak or dumb or whatever.

It's so hard to do when you're in that emotional space, that highly energized space.

And the worse you are in that space, the worse it gets.

And that used to be me.

I used to be so bad in that space, I would get emotionally charged.

And when I was emotionally charged, I never admitted I was wrong.

It was just easier to bulldoze and get to the point where they finally were convinced I was right or gave up and didn't want to talk about it anymore because it was just going nowhere and they were not getting anywhere with me.

And that would leave an open loop.

That would leave probably anger, unfinished business on both sides.

And when you have unfinished business and you bring that forward into your life, into your relationships, it stays unfinished and that opens up more and more cans of worms as you get into more and more disagreements and stuff.

So coming back to this person's message, the very first thing they said is my class D husband, class D manipulation, you know, A, B, C, D.

Class D is the highest number of hurtful, manipulative, controlling, emotionally abusive behaviors that's in the assessment.

And I will say this, this doesn't mean it's hopeless, but I will say this, class D manipulation, at least those who exhibit that many behaviors, because remember it's a 200 point checklist, and if you have 120 plus of those points checked, that's class D, at least according to my assessment.

And when you have that many, it's more rare that somebody at that level is going to step into humility and become healed and change their ways because these lifelong behaviors are so ingrained and they have been compounded upon year after year because they learned what works to keep people under their power or in their power and keep them under control.

And because they've learned what works, they continue to pile up on top of those behaviors, learning all kinds of ways to keep that power over structure over the other person.

And I'm not saying it's hopeless, but I am saying when there are that many or that much control and manipulation for so long.

And even this person wrote their husband was subtly coercive and manipulative and controlling and very intense and made threats and all kinds of things like that.

Even that person already knew how bad it was, but the assessment in the mean workbook kind of put everything in writing for them to see how bad it really was.

And the only reason I'm mentioning that is Because when you have that many behaviors and that much going on in a person, turning that ship around might take a long time, if at all.

So, a person doing or exhibiting all of these behaviors, it's a lot harder for them to reverse course and go the other way in a healthier way.

And what ends up happening often is that even when these people do have humble moments, even when they have empathetic moments where they put themselves in the other person's shoes and realize, oh my God, I'm really hurting this person.

I shouldn't do that.

Even when that happens, there are so many other behaviors that they've done that they need to heal that they may even convince themselves that they are justified in what they do.

Because being humble is very vulnerable, and that kind of exposure is something they've avoided all their lives, at least when they started doing these behaviors.

Humility is vulnerability.

Vulnerability is the scariest place for an abusive person to be.

That's why they are abusive in most cases, because they don't want to be seen as weak or dumb or they have a fear of abandonment or rejection or they have other insecurities that they don't want to feel.

And so in order not to feel those things, they develop controlling and manipulative behaviors that cause people to do what they want them to do.

It's more than that.

It's deeper than that, you know, from childhood survival mechanisms that turn into coping mechanisms later on in life.

And because they don't know how to deal with challenges, which is usually the exposure of their insecurities and their vulnerabilities, they end up doing behaviors to avoid those insecurities and avoid fears and control people so that they aren't vulnerable and exposed for the feelings they might have at a deeper level.

But if they never address those feelings, if they never address those insecurities, if they never address those fears, then what ends up happening is that the behaviors probably will never go away.

Because they never address them.

That's why a lot of people that join the program that have this much going on typically get into therapy as well.

So they take the program and they get into therapy and they're doing everything they can.

And that's another sign that they are serious.

It's like, I'm going to take this program, I'm going to go to therapy and I'm going to take a step back and not bother the person I've been hurting for many, many years because I want them to heal.

I want to give them the space because I realize how hurtful I am.

So, I want to give them enough distance away from me.

Of course, I don't want to lose them because I love them and all that.

You know, they say they love the person they're hurting and it sounds weird, but they didn't know how to love someone in a healthy way so they learned to love them in a controlling and manipulative way.

And it's not my definition of love, it's theirs, but that is how they have grown to, quote, love others.

And because they love them, there's some justification there, you know, It's a mess, really.

It can be very much a mess, as you know.

I mean, if you're going through anything like this, you know the whole thing is a mess, and it feels so confusing and so sad, and you just don't know what's going on.

You don't know which ways up.

And when you're in that space, you just want peace.

You just want clarity on everything that's going on, and you can't get it.

You can't get it with somebody.

Who is in chaos in their own mind and they don't even know it.

That is very difficult to do with somebody who's in chaos in their own mind and they don't even know it.

So this person who row, their husband is in chaos in their mind and they don't even realize it because here they are saying, I've healed, I've changed.

And if they believe that and they're being the way they are, the way it's described in this email, then there's chaos going on in their mind and they don't even realize it.

Like there's another part of them just taking over.

They may think that I got what I needed from the lessons or I got what I needed from therapy.

And so that was enough.

I picked and choose what applied to me and I applied it to my life and didn't consider what didn't apply to me.

And the problem is everything applies.

Everything I talk about in my program applies.

Everything I talk about in this show applies.

The problem is, if you're not humble enough to hear it and believe that it may apply to you, you won't ever try it on.

You won't ever apply it to you.

And if you don't, then you may be missing an important ingredient that actually gets you to that next level of healing where you do choose to stay humble and realize that you may not know everything.

So there's the message to the abusive people that might be listening that might think they're right or righteous or whatever.

And my challenge to any abusive person that tunes into this particular episode who says, I don't need this, Paul, you aren't qualified to teach this stuff.

I've heard everything.

You aren't smart enough or you're abusive yourself.

I've heard that too.

You don't have a PhD.

I've heard everything.

They have tried to put every person that writes to me and says that, This is my challenge to you.

Look at your relationship.

Is the person that is in your life, because I believe they're all in relationships, the people who write to me, is the person who's in your life now, do they love being with you?

Do they really look forward to spending time with you?

Or are they always slightly off or confused or not sure what you're going to say next?

Maybe they're walking on eggshells around you.

Where are they?

Do you feel like they feel wonderful around you?

Do they feel like they are accepted and loved fully by you?

Have you asked them that?

That's my challenge to you.

If you were told to tune into this episode because it might help you become less abusive or more supportive and loving, And if you are like who I was many, many years ago and heard a show like this and said, wow, this doesn't apply to me and this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, because that's probably what I would have said.

If that's you, I'm only giving you this one little challenge is to look at your own relationship.

And if it is great and you're both happy and you believe that the person that you're with feels comfortable around you to be themselves 100% and You can have disagreements and still be okay.

If all of that is true, then maybe you're right about me.

Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

I would bet a paycheck or two or maybe a whole year of the people who write to me who are the most upset with me are almost always the ones who absolutely do not want to change who they are or reflect on their own behaviors.

Because that's who I was.

I know exactly how that feels.

I know exactly what I was thinking back then, that no one can tell me what to do, I'm smart enough, I have lived life long enough that no one out there is going to tell me what's right or what's wrong because I'm smarter than them or they don't know who I am.

They don't know what my relationship is like.

I get it.

Luckily, I don't hear from too many, but the ones I've heard from, boy, they're angry at me or they're angry about me.

They don't want me teaching this stuff.

They don't want me talking about this stuff.

And if one of them writes back and says, I told my partner or I asked my partner, Do you feel happy and comfortable?

Do you feel like you're walking on eggshells around me?

And they said, no, I love you as much as I loved you from day one.

And I think we have a great relationship.

If somebody who was angry at me before said that they said that or asked that of their partner and they write back to me and say, this is what my partner said and here's my partner to tell you all about it, then I will concede.

I will say, I apologize to you.

Then maybe there is something to what you said and I have to look inward.

I have to reflect on what's going on inside of me.

But I'm willing to bet that's not going to happen because the angriest people who write to me and say things like that are usually the people that are afraid of losing control of the people they are with.

And they're also afraid to look wrong.

And they also don't want to be called out for something they believe that they're doing correctly when I'm calling out that they are probably not.

And they are probably pushing those they love.

The people they love away.

They are probably pushing the people who they care about most, at least they say they care about most, away.

So there's my challenge to anyone who is listening to this that has been abusive or hurtful and you don't believe you have, but maybe somebody said, you better listen to this show.

The reason they want you to listen to this show isn't to call you out and prove you wrong, I mean, there might be a little of that, but what they're trying to do is improve the relationship because why would they share a show like this unless it was to improve the relationship?

They want to have a good, happy, healthy relationship with you.

Just be open to new information that you may not like and try applying it.

My definition of love is accepting somebody as they are 100% and supporting the decisions they feel are right for them, even if you disagree with those decisions.

And when both people are doing that, you have a great relationship.

If both people can do that, great relationship.

And I know that most people who listen to this show, both people aren't doing that.

And that's why I talk about this and I will continue talking about it.

So I want to thank both people who wrote to me and share this with others who might benefit.

Love and Abuse is the official podcast of the Mean Workbook, an assessment and healing guide for difficult relationships.

The workbook contains a 200-point assessment to tell you exactly what's causing you to leave so many interactions feeling bad.

Gain clarity on your relationship today.

Visit loveandabuse.com for more information.

And if you've discovered that you are doing the hurtful behaviors to someone that you care about, and you want to change that about yourself, sign up for the only program that walks you through the entire process of healing.

From being emotionally abusive.

It has changed thousands of lives and relationships and can change yours too.

Visit HealedBeing.com to start with some free lessons right away.

And if you're looking for a safer way to listen to this show where all the titles to the episodes are changed, click on the safe listening button on the podcast page over at LoveAndAbuse.com I'm starting to lose my voice.

This show exists to remind you that you are not alone and you're not going crazy.

You are worthy of respect, kindness, and love.

And you deserve to be accepted exactly as you are.

Stay strong.

We'll talk again soon.