Today at the radio backyard fence.

With all the turmoil in the culture, with all the anxiety, the angst, the grief, the mental illness, family troubles, stress, division and the hurt that people are going through, what happens when the hurting person comes to church?

What happens when a person who has been hurt by the church gives the church another chance?

What answers?

What hope?

What resources do we offer that hurting person?

Or do they feel like if they hurt they can't come to church?

They have to put on a happy face?

Two guests are going to address some of these issues we're facing today.

They have some help and hope for what they see as a pivotal moment for the church.

And if you are in leadership, if you're a pastor and you feel like you're just drowning because of all the needs around you, you have to listen because our guests believe, people of faith can be part of solving the mental health crisis that we see in our culture.

I think this is going to be a really important discussion.

Let's get going.

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Program note tomorrow I'm excited to have Bible teacher and radio guy Chip Ingram back with us.

He will join us for a conversation about something he went through not long ago.

In fact, his wife could see how grumpy, how much complaining he was doing.

The glass was always half empty, and she kind of called him on it.

And he began to look at his life and look at a particular passage in the New Testament that turned things around.

That experience in his research became our thank you this month.

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All right, here we go.

Shaunti Feldhahn is a best selling author, popular speaker, social researcher known for her groundbreaking work to help people flourish in life, faith, leadership and relationships.

She holds a graduate degree from Harvard University.

We're not going to hold that against her.

You may have read her books about men, women, marriage, sex, kindness, and more.

She has teamed with Doctor Jim Sells for their latest for the book When Hurting People come to church.

Doctor Jim Sells is a psychologist, a counseling professor, the Hughes Endowed Chair of Christian Thought and Mental Health Practice, co-director of the Institute at Regent University in Virginia Beach, where his team creates resources that equip the church to relieve suffering.

He's a prolific author, and here's the best thing about him.

His wife, Heather, came to our house and did a program.

A news program.

Heather sells is his wife, and we were reminiscing about this thing that happened 17 years ago when she came and did this.

Uh, yeah.

It's just incredible.

Uh, welcome, Jim.

How you doing?

And how's Heather doing?

I am Heather is doing well at in her work at CBN.

And uh that was she was new in in in employment at CBN at that time.

And that was her first like big travel across the country.

Do a do a great story.

So, uh, the the fabrys had as much impact on her as as maybe she had on you.

So that was never forget her.

I'll never forget her coming in and making me cry as I sat down.

And she had that great big camera and everything.

She was so kind to us.

And so you can go online.

You can see that as a matter of fact, I send it to people and they watch it and they say, oh, you went through that?

Yeah.

We did.

So, uh, that's Jim Sells.

Shanti, welcome back to the program.

You've been working hard at working hard, haven't you?

It kind of feels like it, doesn't it?

Yeah.

This has been a really interesting few years, but I have loved it.

It's been a fantastic and important project with Jim.

Yeah.

You always bite off more than you can chew with these really, really hard topics when hurting people come to church.

And then the subtitle, How People of Faith can Help Solve the Mental Health Crisis.

That sounds like an awfully big thing.

Shanti.

Is that possible?

Yeah.

It is possible.

Now, here's the thing, though.

It's not necessarily going to happen the way that people think.

They're part of what Jim and I are proposing in this book, and in the initiative that we're a part of, is that the way that we have been addressing care in the church for years and years has kind of accidentally gone super duper professionalized.

Like 88% of the pastors on our big survey, which we can explain if you want.

But 88% of the pastors said, look, my my job is to refer out to a clinician, which is great.

Like Jim has been training clinicians for 30 something years.

We're fans of clinicians, but there's just not enough of them.

And there's not enough pastors, and there's millions of people standing outside the clinician's doors waiting to get in.

And so we think, can we enlist average people in the church and raise up some lay care people who can walk alongside basic needs and really show the love of Jesus in this moment that we're in?

What do you think about that, Jim?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I the system cannot sustain the care that is needed.

So an average therapist, psychologist, counselor, marriage and family therapist, social worker will see about 200 different people a year.

That's roughly, you know, 20 clients per person and ten sessions take off vacation, and you got about 200 people.

We have a good 50 million people standing in line waiting for for, uh, therapy at 50 million, uh, 200 or 200, a person is going to take a long time to get to the end of the line.

We're never going to get there.

Uh, so what's happened beneficially is care.

Professional mental health care has become ingrained, integrated into the fabric of culture.

We we see that as as a as a normative experience.

I go and get help.

Wonderful.

But now we are going to get help exclusively by by the professional therapist and, and have disconnected our capacity to render care like in friend to friend.

Yes.

Like in I see that you hurt.

I.

I know something about that too.

Let's talk.

Um, can.

I.

Jump in therapy?

You know what I that's what this reminds me of, is what Larry Crabb preached about, talked about, wrote about.

It's like, you know, he was all over this.

It's like you, we have such a resource in the church of just people.

And and I think part of it is the leadership of the church.

Pastors are afraid they're going to say the wrong thing, and they're going to push somebody to, you know, something else.

So there's there's fear involved.

Do you agree, Jim?

Oh, yeah.

Uh, there are on average, eight churches in every zip code.

There's eight large bodies of 100 or more, uh, of of people who know what it's like to experience pain and know what it's like to experience redemption around that pain.

And they all have stories and they they are willing, oftentimes, though not trained, not prepared to know what to do, to know where the limits are.

So we naturally think, uh, because I'm not certain what to do.

I'm supposed to do nothing but send send this person to my pastor who sends this person to a therapist?

Yes.

No.

We can prepare churches to do this.

Whole churches.

Not just people in this ministry, but folks who work in children's ministry and Korean and and our our comforting a stressed mother who doesn't understand.

Uh, uh, her experiences right now as she has like like I imagine the Fabbri home.

Like multiple kids in diapers at the same time.

Uh, and it's hard.

It's it's it's chaotic and.

You feel like your life is falling apart.

And to have someone say, yep, I know that I've been there.

Let's talk about normal here and how you're going to respond in a normal way to normal.

That's what I love about what you've done.

There's a lot of hope here, but we have to see what really is in order to get to the hope.

And, uh, Shanti, I'm going to give you a chance to to talk about this mythical Pastor Brent, when we come back from a break.

Uh, Shanti Felton.

Doctor.

Cells.

Doctor Jim, cells are with us when hurting people come to church.

How people of faith can help solve the mental health crisis.

Is that possible?

They think it is, but it may not look like what we think it looks like, so let's talk about it.

(877) 548-3675.

So great to have you with us today on Chris Fabry live online Chris Fabry live.

Fabry Chris Fabry living great guests Shaunti Feldhahn and Doctor Jim Cells have teamed up and through their research written when hurting people come to Church How people of Faith can help solve the Mental Health crisis.

It's a featured resource.

Chris Fabry live.

Somebody in your church needs somebody in leadership needs to read this, or everybody in leadership and everybody in the pew, too, because there's a lot of hope here.

And I want to read this about Pastor Brent family, pastor of the church.

They preach and pray, marry and bury and everything in between.

Brent loves his work, loves a community, but he is overwhelmed.

For years, ministry has been an endless variation on a single theme.

People need help helping their marriages, overcoming addictions to substances, behaviors, lifestyle, caring for children, caring for aging parents, managing money, anxiety about cancer.

Facing depression after losing someone from cancer.

Confronting loneliness.

Trauma.

Fighting temptation.

Recovering after failing to fight off temptation.

Help in confronting the lie that they should be able to handle this all by themselves.

So this book is an outgrowth of what Brent, this mythical, this this analogy shanty, this Brent guy who is what he is facing.

There's a lot of pastors who feel that way, right?

Yes.

Yeah.

Well, here's here's basically what Jim and I spent the last few years doing.

So we wanted to find out what are pastors already facing, what are they already doing.

What are their perspectives around mental health?

What are their needs and what are churches doing that is working in this area?

And so we interviewed and surveyed more than 2000 Pastor Brents in order to try to find out what their lives are like and what is it that the church can step into or already is.

And one of the things that we found is that the vast majority of pastors really are pretty overwhelmed.

And they know they they got into pastoring most of the time because they care for people and they want to help people.

And yet, kind of like Jim said, there's a line of millions of people outside the door of the clinician's office, you know, either waiting to get in or maybe not at all, because they can't afford to pay for the clinician.

There are millions of people for whom the pastor is their first stop, and there are millions and millions more people than the average pastor can see.

Which is why we're proposing.

Hey, pastor, there is a hopeful answer here that is already working in thousands of churches.

And if you're if you're okay with this, Chris, can I give you an example, please, of this?

So one of the things this, um, happened just a few weeks ago, Jeff and I are, you know, we do a lot of marriage events, and so we're getting ready to speak at this church in a few months.

Um, large church in the Midwest.

And so I'm on a zoom with the pastor, the senior pastor of the church talking about that.

And he's asking about this project.

And, you know, when I explain it and the idea of raising up people to come alongside, he was just like, I'm so overwhelmed, he said.

It's just my whole life is feeling like I'm disappointing people because I just I can't help people with their issues, he said yesterday.

This was a Monday, he said.

Yesterday I'm preaching and a woman comes up to me in the lobby afterwards and he said, every pastor knows this feeling, and she's crying.

And she says, pastor, I need to come speak with you.

I was sexually abused as a child.

It's it's ruining everything in my marriage.

I don't know what to do.

And he was like, of course, call my assistant.

And he told me, you know, she's going to call.

It's going to be a couple weeks till I can get her in.

And then I'm not a specialist in trauma.

I don't know what to say.

I feel so helpless to help her.

I'm just going to refer her to a clinician who's going to make her wait for four weeks before they can see her.

And and I said, imagine that you could have done something just slightly differently, like almost the same, but slightly different.

Imagine that when that woman came up to you, that you had already had this kind of system that we're talking about and that you were able to say, I'm so sorry this happened, I'm going to get your phone number and your, um, name, and I'm going to have Bonnie call you, and we're going to try to get you in to see me.

Absolutely.

It may be a couple of weeks, but in the meantime, Bonnie is our care coordinator, and she's going to call you and hear your story and hear what's going on.

And she's going to probably connect you with one of our lay helpers who walks alongside those with needs like this.

And I happen to know that there's a woman named Maria who actually had that sexual abuse in her background as part of her story, and she loves coming alongside other women who are working through that.

And we may get you to a clinician.

We're going to get you in to see me.

But in the meantime, we are going to find somebody who can walk alongside.

And that one thing right there is game changer.

It like changes everything because no longer are we really funneling people out of the church if they're hurting.

Bingo.

Just hearing that story, Shanthi is like I felt a weight lift off my shoulders because I put myself in that posture.

What are you?

What if she falls through the cracks?

What if she doesn't come back to church?

What if she feels like we don't have time for her?

And there's every reason why she would feel that way.

If he's going to take two weeks to get in to see her.

But the feeling, Jim, of being able to pivot and say, okay, you're going to get you're going to get a phone rather than call my assistant, you're going to get a phone call.

And here's the person who's going to call you.

And to be able to say that that just, you know, I'm thinking of the person who's gone through that, you know, the sexual abuse and everything that's going on.

She hears, somebody's going to call me.

They really do care about me.

That's that's what's communicated, right?

Yeah, exactly.

And what we are seeing now is a desire.

A passionate desire, uh, and a sense of confusion.

But I don't know how to do it.

I guess everybody connects with that message.

But how do we make it happen?

And part of our work then over the past couple of years, first is, is to talk to churches that are doing it really well.

And and we have we document like we use like five great churches that are from different demographic and church sizes that are like, oh, here's a here's another example of someone who's doing it.

Great.

And then then on our website identify a host of different ministries.

And there are dozens and dozens of ministries that are doing some great work.

And then also to say, here's the resources that we generate, because what we do at Kerry's and and a big team that Shanti is part of.

And Jen Ripley, another professor at Regent at, co-directs this with we we create tools.

We create videos and manuals and workbooks and and all the resources, the planning guide and the dissemination of information guide and how to train a coordinator and and how to approach your your elder or deacon board and all the things necessary like layout in in probably close to 200 different documents is all on our website of churches.

Here's how you do it.

And and here's the website.

It's yours and it's available.

It's free.

It's meant to be distributed.

We've had a blessed by a wonderful, uh, person who who stepped in to say, I want to fund you doing this.

And and I'd like you to build out this project, make it available to every church in the country, uh, have have it done in English and Spanish.

Do it in three years.

Ready?

Go.

Wow.

Oh, and make it absolutely free.

Uh, so we're not selling memberships.

We're selling like we created the resources.

Now go use them.

Contact us with consultation and we'll connect you with other churches or that are in the same spot that you're in.

And our interest is to create a culture around care within the church.

Okay.

So how do we get that?

Because there's there's somebody listening who said, Chris, you got to ask that or I'm going to call you.

How do they get there?

Where do they.

Go?

Uh, yeah.

Uh, all one word.

W-w-w dot.

The church cares.

That's the one word the church cares.com.

Church cares.com.

Okay.

My default if I talk with somebody who's around the country and they ask me, you know, this is the struggle that I'm having and what should I do?

My default is to say, okay, what's the biggest church in your area?

They probably have a counseling department or they have more resources than the the smaller church.

Am I right, am I wrong?

Am I leading people astray?

Shanti.

What do you.

Say?

Actually, you'd be surprised.

It's.

It's interesting.

You know how I said we interviewed and surveyed more than 2000 pastors?

Right.

And these churches were of every conceivable size like we had, I don't know, 600 and something that were 100 people or smaller.

And we had, I don't know, somewhere around 40 or 50 that were 10,000 or more.

Like there were just it's all it's all over the map.

And I was actually encouraged by the fact that it's not necessarily about the size.

Um, the church that I was just sharing, that one example of the pastor in the Midwest, that's an enormous church, and it doesn't really have this kind of connection.

But, you know, there's another church in the Midwest that's not far from it that they've been doing this for ten years, and they've only got 5 or 600 people in the church, but they've got a pretty robust LA care ministry, Tree and they do refer out as well.

Um, and so it's really a matter of, yeah, start maybe start with the big churches because they do have more resources, but it's more about Google, the people in your area.

Google lay counseling at church and see what comes up, because that is that it's it is going to be where God has really raised up someone who gets this and wants to take the step.

And candidly, if I could just speak to for a minute to somebody who really gets this and wants to take this step but doesn't know how.

That's what the Church Cares is designed to do.

That's what this book is designed to do.

It's designed to cast a vision and show you how.

And we have a link if you go to Chris.

Org, we've got that link the church cares.

Com if you're driving and you can't write it down, just remember Chris Fabry live and you can get there.

So if there's somebody listening right now, Jim, and they they have this just this desire to help other people.

But they're not a pastor.

They're not in leadership even, but they just have a vision for I want to be the person who stands in the gap for somebody who's dealing with an unwanted pregnancy or with or an unexpected pregnancy or some mental health issue.

I want to be there for that person.

Do they go to the church?

Care.com.

What do they do?

That's a great place to start and I see a couple of different options.

Number one, there's uh, let's just say, uh, it's it's it's somebody named Terry.

And Terry is like, they've never been trained, but they have great passion.

Good.

You can you can go to the church cares.

You can download, uh, the, the materials and you can begin to create this within your church, but let's say like, that's too big.

I can't create this within my church.

Great.

We can.

You can sign up for training through the Church Cares, in which you can, uh, we can train you with in three basic skills in a total of six hours.

It doesn't take much.

Number one, to be able to listen well, uh, to sit with another person in pain.

Number two, to be able to pray with someone which is distinct from praying for someone.

Often we use prayer as the benediction to the conversation.

And that's our that's our that's our signal to.

We're going to end now and and move on.

Can I pray for you before I go?

Versus thinking about prayer as what I do to engage you and God around this painful thing together?

We we come to God and, and and we are with one another in this, this passionate pursuit around Round around insight and and clarity around the suffering.

And number three, we want to give you a basic problem solving grid.

It's just four steps.

It's not meant to solve every issue, but it's meant to take help someone take a next step towards progress.

And and it's an inch.

It's a foot.

It's a yard.

It's it's just a little movement and and that that creates empowerment.

Like I'm doing something rather than just have it done to me.

I am, I am I'm asserting myself towards towards addressing part of this pain.

I have control, I have some influence, I can I don't have to take it passively and that that creates hope then so so those three simple things, uh, we we offer that in six hours.

We intentionally want it to be really, really brief.

We don't want you to have to study for an hour for a year to be able to do this.

Know you can start with some basic training.

You're not a therapist.

You're not trying to be a therapist.

You can refer and continue relationship with people that are in therapy.

Like, yes, you go see the psychologist or the counselor and I'll stay with you.

Let's talk on Tuesday after your appointment on Wednesday or after your appointment on Monday.

And, and we can continue to converse around all the things that you're learning as you address this grief or this loss or this deep discouragement.

Wow.

It sounds like in a sense, it sounds like discipleship to me.

It is.

And walking along with somebody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's so it's so encouraging.

I saw this video yesterday.

I don't have time to do it justice here.

But there was a fellow who called up and he ordered DoorDash.

He ordered a pizza or something.

And the lady gets there.

I don't know if you've seen this or not.

Lady gets there and she says, I'm I'm a little older.

I'm forgetful.

And I forgot your pizza.

This.

You know I got it wrong here.

I'll tell you the rest of the story, because here comes the music.

Shaunti Feldhahn and Doctor Jim Selzer with us today.

When hurting people come to church, how people of faith can help solve the mental health crisis.

I have a bunch more questions and we'll take yours at (877) 548-3675 more straight ahead on Moody Radio.

I hope this is a breath of fresh air for you.

And if you are a leader in a church, a pastor in a church, and you felt overwhelmed, this pivot might be exactly what you're looking for.

We're talking about the church caring for people who are hurting.

Guess what?

There are people who work with Care Net and have for the last 50 years who are helping women and men with an unexpected pregnancy.

Yeah, that can happen inside the church, too.

But Cornette's network of affiliated pregnancy centers in the last year have helped save more than 67,000 unborn lives from abortion.

Wrap your mind around that 67,000 unborn babies have come into this world.

They've shared the gospel because it's not just about saving the life of the baby and then moving on.

They've shared the gospel with more than 100,000 moms and dads.

Since 2008, 1.1 million babies have been saved from abortion, 2.3 million have heard the gospel.

I could go through more statistics, but that's more than statistics.

It's a pro abundant life ministry that touches hearts and lives every day.

They saved lives.

They help build families.

They serve.

They give dads Fathers a vision for what it might be like to be involved in a family that they've never seen before.

And most of all, they like making disciples.

What could be better than that?

Go to Chris.

Org click the green connect link right there and you'll find out about the pregnancy centers right in your community and how you might be able to get involved with them.

Chris Fabry, Livorno Click the green connect link today.

Shanti Feldhahn and Doctor Jim Sells are with us.

I mentioned this, I saw this yesterday and I and I reached out.

There's a pastor in Wichita, Kansas and the church hasn't even started yet.

You know, it's just like a church plant type of thing.

So the ring doorbell captures the older.

Usually you think of pizza delivery people as younger, you know, and she's a little older and she says, I'm kind of forgetful and I messed up your order.

I might play this audio for you later in the week, but basically, The pastor says.

And she didn't know who he is.

He puts his hand on her and says, don't, don't you worry about this.

We'll make it work.

You don't feel bad about this at all.

You are loved.

And then he says, uh, can I pray for you?

And she said, yeah.

And he said, sounds like you're going through some stuff.

And she starts to share.

She says, yeah, my, my mom is a little older and I'm, I'm dealing with that.

I've got some financial issues.

And he goes, hey, hey kids, come out here.

Girls come out here.

And his wife and his girls come out.

I can't tell it without getting choked up.

And they surround her and they put their hands on her and they begin to pray for Susanna.

I think her name is.

They begin to pray for her right there.

That it's not.

It's not staged.

It just happened.

And then they make contact with her later on.

I saw, you know, a later thing where they were able to to start a fund for her, you know, and to help her a little bit more when you have your eyes open to the people that are there.

That is the first step to me, Jim, to be able to see them so that you can respond.

Am I am I catching the vision?

That is that is absolutely the vision.

Yes.

So it is.

It is not.

We are not even advocating for, for a small group of, of people to be the care ministers in the church or advocating for the church to be the care ministry to itself and to the community that God has placed it in and and you.

In order to do it, you have to have some basic skills as to how to love people and and how to sit and be be comfortable in someone else's discomfort without having to rescue or or or suppress or run from.

But that's the first step.

I, I know how to sit when someone else is uncomfortable and not be overwhelmed.

Once you can do that, um, you can extend care in phenomenal ways without degree, without therapy.

It's like I love.

I'm a therapist.

That's what I do.

And I'm not trying to undermine my own profession.

I'm trying to prepare the church to do what I'm not allowed to do.

I'm not allowed to go visit.

I'm not allowed to put my hand.

Hand around that, Susanna.

And and just love her for messing up a pizza order.

Uh.

Uh, they need to make an appointment with me before I can do that.

Uh, so I, I commend what you are identifying through that that that video of of.

Yes.

That's what we're trying to accomplish here.

Yeah.

Uh, Shanti, what do you say to that?

I want to encourage the the pastor and the leader who is listening to this, because there are probably many busy clinicians, pastors, church counselors, church staff who are like, I love this vision and I'm just so overwhelmed I can't take on one more thing.

Like, I have enough to do with trying to get my sermons ready and visit the hospital because you know so and so's father is dying and I it just it's impossible for me.

And here's where I want you to know that that that concern is heard.

And the whole point of what we're doing on this radio program is we are speaking to the people who surround you in your body and saying, don't put this on the pastor.

Don't go to the pastor and say, we need to do this.

Instead, if you're listening to this and going, this is a really important vision, pick it up yourself.

Take it to the pastor and say, I would love to explore this, and I will do the lifting.

And, you know, whatever your leadership, your, um, goals, every church.

One of the things we found in these 2000 churches that we interviewed and surveyed is that everybody does it differently.

Every church has a different DNA.

God leads in all these different ways.

And yet the key common denominator is that it was usually a champion, a layperson, maybe a licensed counselor who happens to go to that church, but often just a motivated person who goes to the pastor and says, I want to do this.

And the next step, and this is what we're going to encourage you.

The next step often that we found really worked is for the pastor to announce it from the stage on a Sunday morning and say, we would like to start this initiative.

We're going to have an interest meeting for a working group next Thursday night at seven.

And if you're interested, come sign up and we're going to see who wants to be a part of this and will form a working group of people who are basically going to make recommendation about where we start and what we do, and we're just going to start small and put one step in front of the one foot in front of the other.

And that's how some of these churches that today have really thriving ministries to their church and their community, that's how they started.

This might be the first step, then this conversation that we're having and the book when hurting people come to church, we have it linked at Chris.

Org.

Here's an email I just got this.

My best friend was bipolar.

We spent hours talking on the phone.

She would often tell me talking with me was more more beneficial than talking to her therapist.

I have no training.

She was my friend.

I just loved her.

We are both believers and I would always give her biblical advice.

She is now with Jesus that that is what you're talking about.

And and for some it comes natural, you know, for some for my friend who emailed, It comes natural.

Some have this heart, like Michael in Florida.

Michael, tell me why you called today.

I called because, uh, I've always had a heart.

Well, when I was talking to the guy explaining why I was calling, I said, the underdog.

I have a heart for the underdog.

And then the Lord pricked my heart.

He said, no, they're not dogs.

They're just broken.

They're broken.

Yeah, they're not dogs.

They're broken.

They're hurting.

And I'm I'm actually I'm hurting myself.

But I have such a heart for the hurting.

I think you've.

I think you've put your finger on on something there.

Uh, Michael.

And that is the hurting are.

If you've known hurt in your and you know what that feels like, then you know what it's like to be lonely.

You know what it's like to feel isolated.

You know what it's like to have nobody, you know, to to come alongside you or to be able to talk with you.

So you are right in the, uh, if you've moved past that, you are in the place where you can be part of that team that comes alongside Shanti.

You agree with me?

Oh my gosh, it's so important.

I one of the things that was so encouraging about all these conversations with these churches that actually, you know, there's thousands of churches that are doing this really well and all, like I said, very differently.

But one of the common denominators that was really common was that churches who had recovery ministries where it could be celebrate recovery, it could be regeneration, it could be, you know, many different options.

But one of the things that they found is that if they did it could it might not even be drugs and alcohol.

It could be hurts, habits and hang ups.

Right?

It could be anything.

Is that if they do a 12 step program?

Step 12 is okay.

Now you've come a long way.

Now how are you going to help someone else?

How are you going to step into someone else's life?

And it was this explosion of volunteerism in the church from people who had been comforted with a comfort we've received.

We are going to comfort others.

Yes.

And that pattern is what God has ordained.

It's just it's become interrupted in the years that have, you know, come up to this one over the last 20 or 30 years, because we have had this idea that if someone has a disorder of some kind, they need a specialist, and maybe they do, but they also need a friend.

They need someone to listen.

They need someone to walk alongside.

Yeah.

Michael, I didn't mean to cut you off there, but I got excited about what you're saying.

Do you have anything else you wanted to say?

Yes.

They they need someone to listen.

That's the most important part because they're they're already hurting.

They don't need someone to come up and point out all their flaws.

They need someone to listen because the flaws, they come from something in their heart, from probably most likely their past.

And they're afraid to admit that they just need someone to listen.

You know, the other thing, Michael, is such a great point.

The other thing is they don't need to be fixed.

And when we come back from a break, I want you to talk about that.

They don't you don't have to be anybody's savior in this equation.

Uh, the listening element is so important when hurting people come to church.

How people of faith can help solve the mental health crisis.

It's our featured resource today.

Just go to Chris Fabry live.

More straight ahead.

I knew this was going to be a hard conversation to fit into one hour, 54 minutes, but we're going to do all we can.

Shante Feldhahn Doctor Jim sells when hurting people come to church, as are featured resource.

Chris Fabry live.

We also talked about the church's great places to start.

Respond to what Michael said there about the broken and my thought that you don't have to be anybody's savior here.

What do you say, Jim?

Yeah.

So good.

Because, um, James three two lays out who we're talking about.

Um, he writes, we all stumble in many different ways.

So we're not talking about a select few people who are the broken.

We are the broken.

The uniqueness of our brokenness is just special to us.

But but, uh, we are talking about caring within the church.

Everybody needs it.

Caring within the community.

Everybody needs it.

So that's a pervasive sense.

Who's Mike?

Michael is called to attend to the needs of everybody in his within his reach.

Yeah.

Michael.

Thank you.

Uh, Shanti, let's get real practical.

There's a there's a listening training that that goes along with this.

Can you describe that?

Because that's that might be a good first step for people to write.

Yeah I think that for people who are like I love this idea, but I don't know where to start, that's usually that's a pretty good place to start.

So imagine that you did what we were suggesting earlier and that you said, we're going to have a working group of people who are going to try to figure out how to how to operationalize this, even if it's just, you know, a small thing.

One of the first things that churches often did if they were starting this kind of ministry is they had some sort of a training.

And you can find many different great options for listening training.

We have one at the church, Care.com, and it's completely free.

There are others that are great that are out there.

But imagine that.

And our training, the church cares.

Training.

Imagine that as a low bar that you do this with your church by having it be kind of the equivalent of a six week Bible study.

That's the way it's set up.

You can do it intensively over a weekend or something if you want, but it's set up sort of as a default so that, hey, you know, in the spring we're going to have our Beth Moore study and we're going to have our this and our that, and we're going to have this listening training.

And it gives people an opportunity to step into this, not necessarily to be part of a big ministry, but just to learn how to listen and be part of the body of Christ.

Um, I did a big research trip to a big church in Phoenix that now today has thriving, uh, lay counseling, you know, even more, um, involved.

And one of the key counselors that I spoke to, he started in this way because he heard about this listening, you know, study that was being offered by his church.

And his girlfriend had just broken up with him because she said, you never listen.

And so and so he was like, I guess I need to learn to listen.

And he just went through this as a listening exercise so he could grow.

And then the person who was the coordinator equivalent came up to him and said, you know, you're actually you're very empathetic.

You're you're someone we'd love to have engaged in this.

Would you would you be interested?

And he got into it.

And now he's one of their top lay counselors, and he's going to pursue a master's in counseling because it's Something that God has just gifted him in.

And he started as he was working at target dating, somebody broke up and started a whole new life because he just learned to listen.

There's the pivot right there.

You don't know what this is going to do in somebody else's life.

You don't know what it's going to do in your own life.

So the real quickly at the end of the listening training, what does that make you do better at doing?

Being quiet or asking follow up questions, that kind of thing.

Well, Jim is the one who created the training, so I'm going to let him answer that one.

Yeah, yeah, I think I think there's a space for quiet.

There's a space for for prayer.

There's a space for I understand there's a space for just an empathic response.

Even even just the the eye, eye glance that makes connection.

Uh, there's a space for, uh, let's let's get together again next week or in a few days.

It's not a one and done conversation, but I.

I am in relationship with you and you're in a relationship with me around these painful things in life.

Okay.

You mentioned pray with instead of pray for.

So and I want to get there before we end today is that I'm interpreting that to be, um, your friend is pouring out his heart to you, and and you hear this and you say, let's pray you you begin to pray and just identify the things that you've heard.

Father, you know how Bill feels.

You know what he's going through, and he's kind of poured it out.

And so you just you rehearse almost the things that you have heard.

Is that what praying with is.

Exactly the, the concept of in in church language, we call it intercessory prayer.

It's like I am, I am standing in front of God with you.

Mhm.

And and this is a scary thing.

This is an overwhelming thing.

And we don't know what to do.

And we are standing.

You and I are standing around your pain right now.

And and there is both comfort and courage that is, that is transmitted in that prayer.

Confidence too.

There is this confidence that God is there, that he does hear us.

He is with us.

You know, we're 2 or 3 are gathered and and there are answers to this, though we don't know what they are.

So there's a bit of unknowing as well.

Uh, and a bit of mystery that's in there.

I just I'm hoping that there's somebody listening today who's who is resonating with what we've been talking about, like I am, because we are all broken.

We all need this kind of help.

We all need to be these kinds of helpers.

You know, Mister Rogers talked about.

Look for the helpers when there's something wrong.

Look for the helpers.

Might we be in the church?

Helpers that can help others, whether you've got a degree or not, whether you have ever been to college or not.

Uh, to to deal with these mental health struggles with social media and everything that's going on in the culture and all of the the whirlwind that we're in.

Uh, I'm glad for this resource.

And for what?

The work that you've done.

Jim, thank you for being with us today.

It's a privilege to be here.

Thank you.

Chris.

Shante, of all, as always, thank you for your work.

Don't you stop writing and you come back and see us again, okay?

Thanks so much.

Doctor Jim sells shaunti feldhahn.

They have put their backs to the plow of helping us help the hurting people around us.

And by doing that, we're kind of helping ourselves when hurting people.

Come to church is our featured resource Source at Chris Fabbri Livorno.

We also have a link to the church Care.com.

You've heard about that.

The practical listening training that you can do.

You can find all of that right there.

Just go to Chris Dot again, the title when Hurting People Come to church.

How people of Faith can help solve the Mental health crisis.

Just go to the website and come on back tomorrow.

Because I got a friend.

Uh, he and I both talk about being from West Virginia.

I'm actually from West Virginia.

He's studied there, and he wants to help you and me.

No matter what we're going through to be able to choose Joy.

Chip Ingram is going to be with us here at the back fence tomorrow.

Chris Fabry Live is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.

Thanks for listening.