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Marcus Alan, Marcus Allen, Alan, Marcus, what do I call you?

I'm gonna I'm just going to call you all all of that.

Randomize it.

So we left off on a really interesting subject that I'm kind of a well known skeptic, but you've got me on this one.

This one is interesting and I want to hear the rest of it.

Out, and I want to talk about Christian occultism and how Christianity makes a cultism seem cooler than it actually is.

And I want to talk about these chairs and tables that were flipped upside.

Can you bring us back to this moment where you were like running back to your car.

Where were you going?

Why were you running back to the car?

Set us back up again.

Yeah, we kind of left on a cliffhanger.

I kind of gave you enough sense to want to chase down a trail.

And that's not like a red herring thing because I'm still working through this myself.

So this is why I'm here today with you because these events happened previously, so recently now a lot of people are getting into the idea of retro causality and is time a straight line or is it sort of the spiral to a spiral inward?

Does a spiral outward?

This type of thing, And reminded of these seasons.

We had the conversation saying that I'm in Minnesota, so now that it's November and the ground is freezing, that's clearly a different season.

So to go back to a different season in my life when I was attending a church youth group.

I was twelve thirteen years old, and the church youth group was the cool thing to go to apparently.

I mean, as as far as my worldview understood at this time, I would be graduating into the next phase of my life, which would be in this youth group setting where they would be people older than men.

They'd be more influential, so I'd be able to absorb their interest music, culture, whatever, and then be able to sort of balance my own mental checkbook to say it, do I like this, do I like that?

Sort of define an identity.

Was this all Christian music that you were being introduced to or is there like other mainstream stuff that they were sneaking in?

Anything?

In other words, anything that I'd recognize, because I wouldn't recognize any popular like Christian music unless it was like DC talk.

Right, So the popularity of DC talk was something that other people knew, but as far as other music, it would be like the Tooth and Nail bands go on MxPx.

Okay, okay, all right, So we've got a date range almost We're talking like late nineties, early two thousands.

Well, this is the thing with like set tapes and then CDs.

I didn't know what was new or old because you'd go to the Bible bookstore and they'd all be on the same shelf.

So I base things off of the cover art, so I have something.

For example, here this is a Lawrence the Cat and the.

B I b l e.

Okay, I've never heard of Lawrence the Cat.

So is this a music thing?

Is it based on a cartoon or a direct to v just thing?

Well, there was I talked about Carmen earlier, and this is a Carmen.

Property, right, I mean he was occult is and also making like children's mascots.

I don't know if you can kind of see him in this picture.

It says yo kids.

It's like Carmen presents yo kids.

And then it would be this this cat, Lawrence the Cat and the Bible.

Right, So I know that you're interested in tell me this is where a a lot of it is rap.

It's very cool.

It's like, this is just one of the artifacts I have, and if I don't have it, then people won't believe that it's even a real thing because it sounds so ridiculous.

A side note, there was also the singing songbook character called Salty.

Do you remember a salty the singing songbook, of course, I know who was this guy who dressed as a songbook like a hymnal, so like his front would be the spine and then he turned around and it would be the back of the pages, and he'd be like, oh, dancing and teaching children music.

Of course, these would be Christian songs.

The salty names throwing me off though, because salty doesn't imply happy or anything.

I get.

I get that.

Oh was it like p.

S LM and the Psalms?

So like the salter I hope somebody goes to hell for that.

And I'm being genuine about that judgment.

So again, this is this is the humor of looking back in understanding that the perception of it was different than than it is now.

So you are immediately picking up on the joke that you call a guy salty and he has to be happy in seeing the kids.

Well, there's that dichotomy of does he really want to be doing this job?

Is this just a paycheck?

It's like the same thing with a character named Bibleman apparently was a serious adult actor, maybe in actual adult films, and he had the musculature to play a hero, but did they do a full background check on the guy.

I don't know.

Okay, I like the backstory that we're giving.

This is all about the children's cat Bible song.

I'm going to have to look this up, so I assume this is something you could find on YouTube or Internet archive.

A lot of it has gone Internet archive.

But again, to have the physical thing in the hand, like, yeah, this is that you looked it up.

On eBay to see if that's even going for anything.

Well, for the rarity, no, I haven't even bothered with that because for me, again, it's not a collection of items I want to have.

It's just a collection of items that somehow are still around that haven't been thrown out yet.

I like this because before we talked last time, I hadn't even heard of Carmen and Carmen.

The fact that Carmen existed in the aesthetic that he was able to do and the content.

I'm so happy that that existed out there, and I'm a little bit bummed for myself that I guess I didn't find it at a point when I could have appreciated it much earlier on, and not even in a mocking way, in a way that would have been like, wait, I'm Christian and I've heard about some of this stuff, but I didn't know about this level of detail, like that.

It had more detail than a Marilyn Manson album would have.

In terms of occultism.

Now, I would say absolutely, because what we talked about last time was the fact that a lot of the occult mechanisms that are pushing forward, a lot of the feel from that comes from religious figures who are saying, don't look at these things.

So while they're in opposition to it, without it, there would be no progress made on either side.

Do you think that there's at any point in the future like a like a Christian adaptation of occultism that embraces it more, because it seems that it can get close.

Like my best example, I think is Catholicism, where they've got a lot of the occultism in there, and if they just kind of add a few extra things, you've kind of got like an oto ritual in your hands.

Certainly, recently, the Pope, the current pope, I don't know what his real name is or what is pope name is, but he was seen touching this ice stone figure.

Where's the I don't know the location I sat on social media.

Maybe it's a I but enough publications have reported on this, But it was silly to me because I was like, that should have been a block of dry ice.

So the Pope was recognizing the fact that there might be a climate and that climate might be changing due to man.

But the question in my mind is if there are so called acts of God that are weather events that are acts of God and not acts of man, then man just has.

To go along with it.

But now here's the Pope saying that man might have some sort of responsibility as to whether or not the polar ice caps are melting.

Okay, I didn't know this, So he's like with al Gore when he's staying in this ice zoom.

No, this was very recent, which in the last few weeks of.

Okay, very topical.

Well, right, I guess that that's kind of been the lean right, Like, especially the Catholic Church has been leaning more and more into green energy, and I don't even know, Like I wonder what their stance on AI is because I guess that would be incomplete opposition to green energy.

Right.

Well, I think it's just the resonance symbol of this ice cap, this thing that it means something different to me than it does to you.

But we see this symbol, and now the Pope is in some ways trying to wrangle it together to be like, this is our Catholic perspective on this specific issue.

Using a touchstone which looks like a block of dry ice that hasn't been cracked yet, so it's not giving off the sort of smoky effect.

So it looked like some plastic set design with like led lights inside of it, and I was thinking, you know, we could have done a much better job of making this thing look like it's alive, like it's melting, like there's something inside of it that once it melts, there might be a figure.

Did you ever have those soaps that had little plastic figures in them and then you get rewarded for using the soap by it just dissolves away and there's a little figure.

Were mostly dinosaurs, though they would just turn out to be like a plastic.

Dinosaur, some little some little chot skier figure.

And I'm like, I got them all over here doesn't exist anymore because enough people in the eighties and nineties hurt themselves on them.

Yeah, something that looks exactly about the size and the shape of that.

So you so you'd use the.

Bar of soap and all that would remain would be the dinosaur, and.

Then it would like an egg, like the soap looks like an egg.

Usually yes, yeah, because it would have to be enough casing to cover the thing.

So this is sort of like my active imagination as a child to see any any simple thing could be so influential to me as an adult that I wouldn't even know about it.

So this is why when it comes to raising children, people want to bring them to a Christian church.

Just say that if I raise up a child in the church, that's that's the track will set them on, and then they will continue along that track because we will have sort of built the track.

Said, this is a train you're on, this is a direction to head, and this is your life's course.

But I'm not a trained guy, so I didn't get on the track.

Well, and I don't know if that necessarily works anyways, right, because like the typical thing you go through as a teen is to reject everything that's been presented to you so far.

It's like, oh, there's a whole nother world out there, so let me see if there's something that's the exact opposite of what I'm familiar with that might also be interesting.

So I think that there's all like if you try and train your kid to be a certain thing or think a certain way, it could just as easily backfire like fifty to fifty almost right, Like it's it's an absolute crapshoot.

It is like flipping a coin.

You don't know which direction it's going to go in, and it's going to be like the shortening is cat where it's like dead and live at the same time depending on other factors, and the other factors aren't.

Necessarily any do you even have any influence at all?

If if it's just like a flip of a coin, like you might as well just not.

Well, there's the definition of magic that we have to brush up against, where if you recognize that we live in a magical world, and the definition of magic has something to do with recognizing my own will and then being able to bring change to my own reality.

In short, we're talking about raising a kid and introducing them to like a religion for example, to kind of shape what their path would look like.

I would I would extend that umbrella of religion to be also all cultures.

So the way that a good like laser focused version of that as an example.

And then it expands outward because the it's like the hierarchy of decisions, Like if our church doesn't celebrate Halloween or Christmas in these ways, are we going to be heretical for participating these events in our own ways?

So to have like a private Christmas ceremony at home would be different than going to the church and Christmas.

What do you think about heresy for Organs.

I'm for creative rebellion and not not doing a rebellion in such a way that it is so against the grain that makes everybody angry because there's some people that get rebellious and then everyone just like, man, that is cringe.

Let me give a practical example.

There was the artist that got famous for submerging a crucifix into like a huge violence.

Yeah his Christ right right, So in your mind, is that heresy or is that just cringey?

Is there like a line between those two.

At that point in time, the crucifix submerging human urine was going to be a catalyst for talking about the culture at large.

So the function of the thing depending on the artists and author's intent versus how it's received, could have various influences by other sides.

Talking about controlling the narrative, let.

Me let me ask you on let me just split hairs a little bit.

Yeah, if the artist had done that in private, just for their own I guess fun, and never even told anyone about it, So therefore it wasn't about starting like a national dialogue.

Is one of those versions more heretical than the other.

Now you're talking about splitting heresies.

Yeah, I'm here to unite them basically, is what I'm trying to speak about.

This idea that we want to sort of unite everybody under a symbol, under an art, under a creative expression, going to a movie, having a milestone cultural event, versus having our own screens in our own private lives and being separated.

So I'm thinking today in terms of performative meditation, where we're talking young people at this point, and you know young people the iPad generation.

You give a three year old to young iPad and YouTube and they're just gonna scroll through it and it's gonna make all the sounds and slide up, and they're gonna it's gonna alter their brain and they're gonna do different things.

So when they feel anxious, then they think, well, the reason I'm anxious is because I'm getting too much information, information overload, and to self soothe, I might just go sit in a corner across my legs and focus on my breathing.

We would call that maybe meditation or prayer or time out, depending if it's punishment.

It's like you need to have a go go time out.

So these young people today are giving themselves time out while they're setting up their camera to record them sitting still in a corner for a period of time.

So at that point, because of the observer effect and knowing that it's being recorded, are they really doing the meditation, Are they really doing the inner work?

Or are they just sitting still and smiling and making mug faces or the camera this type of thing.

Well, hear me out.

Out of those two options, right, the person that would just go and sit down and meditate, versus the person and that would set up a camera, hit record and then go and sit and meditate.

The ladder of those would seem like it would require a higher level of skill and enlightenment in order to continue to actually meditate even though they've got that observer effect, they transcend whatever metaphysical property that enacts the observer effect.

If they can transcend that, the technically they're training at a much higher level than the person that's not setting up the camera.

And this returns to your question the heresy of contemplating the meaning of a crucifix covered in human urine, the piss christ art piece, if that becomes the focus of contemplation during a meditation, it might even just be like you're in an art museum and you sit down in your stair of a painting for a while, and then you're just looking at the colors and your eyes go walking cross and then you see something that isn't there, But then you've gotten something out of it, and it might not be what the author intended for it to be.

But the personal experience on an individual level is different from a church congregation focused on a symbol together during a worship service.

So this is the individual versus the group.

And now we're talking about how to be an individual who belongs to a group but remains an individual through their own creative rebellion and not make everybody angry to the point where you stick out so much that you purposely become the outsider, and then no one likes you on purpose.

But that archetype still has to exist, no, like some like there has to be someone that plays that role that defines what the other poll is to like actually go out there and stand there with that flag so that everyone else can be like, oh, there's the flag.

And we did talk about the so called see You at the Pole event in front of high schools in America where a Christian teams standing around the American flag pole on their school campus to unite in prayer.

So in that way, literally standing around a flag to pray for the nation, to pray for the school, to want to have a positive effect in their minds, a positive effect on their school, to clear for Christ.

There's like an interesting relative theory of play here, right Like even when we just first started talking and you mentioned like all the cool kids went to this youth camp, and it's like, man, like, you're already inside of a microcosm, a bubble of sorts for that to be the cool thing to do.

And now we're talking about another example of Christians that are standing around flagpoles.

I assume at least how I am interpreting you bringing that up is that that is these outsiders that are literally saying like, hey, here, here, we are in as opposition to everything else that's going on.

So we're at least one version of this polarity.

But that again is inside of like a microcosm.

Right, Like in one school on the West coast, maybe then that might be weird to have those kids grouped around.

But if you go into Midwest, or if you zoom out and you look at the US versus say Europe, now it's really like anyone doing that would be a complete outsider.

But it all seems to be completely relative as to what would ostracize you.

Right, there's some groups that if Marilyn Manson stepped in the room, forgive the continued example, but it's like if Marilyn Manson stepped the room, there's some groups of people that be like, look at this poser, you know, Versus if he went into other groups, it would be like, oh my god, the Antichrist just showed up.

And again, Marilyn Manson is a symbol that's etched on my mind at a very suggestible period in my life.

What age, what was the first the first time you heard or saw Marilyn Manson, probably.

Nineteen ninety eight ninety nine.

Do you remember on the release of Final Fantasy eight.

No, I was hardcore seven.

I think I didn't make my way all the way through seven, so I didn't pay attention to eight.

But I know the time period we're talking about.

Okay, So again, time being what it is, can only do one thing at a time.

I remember standing outside of a funk Go Land I later became GameStop, but a game store that carried the media, and in the window they had the poster art for Final Fantasy eight, and it had this woman, this figure, and she had like this ship's helm behind her, so she's kind of like the ship of State, so she's kind of steering the drama behind the scenes.

And then there's the characters that are going to be in it.

And then Jux Supose.

Right next to it was that Anti was an Antichrist superstar, where Marilyn Manson is the androgynist figure alien with the kind of the dolphin skin.

So that image was next to Final Fantasy eight, which I think was next to probably the Legend of Zelda Awkreen of Time poster.

So this is a music slash video game store.

Correct, So that being the symbol.

Now if I would if I would have seen that symbol on the wall, I might have thought, well, maybe this is not a Bible book store, maybe I shouldn't go into it, but this is the place to get use video games, so I would go into there.

So in that way, that's how culture might have seeds of destruction because the anti Christ Superstar clearly is not the Christ Superstar, so it's not Jesus Christ Superstar.

But not knowing the cultural reference to what it was about, it's just going on vibes, right, So as a kid, you like your intuition, your gut feeling.

Does it feel like it's going to have a devastating effect on my psyche?

Is it my my affantasia?

My images in my mind that are just going to be like so resonant.

I don't have control over that.

So that's why there's the idea of like guarding your eyes against certain images because of the strength of the image, you won't know until you feel the effect of it.

I can agree with that, I mean, because that could apply to something that you see out in the real world.

It's just a series of images, right, so there's definitely people that can see things that will change them for life.

Do you think Marilyn Manson is one of those things?

At that kind of level, I mentioned Marilyn Manson alongside of Final Fantasy, knowing that at that time in my life I would not be open to exploring that media, but in the future I would be able to do so at my own time.

So there's this idea of like a hype cycle release to say, like what's coming out this week, and you want to be with the current releases versus being with the evergreen sort of media that is more of a timeless quality.

Okay, so we've kind of got a good established time frame, time period that brings us back to this event that I want to finish out.

You go with it with a mental image that I'll never forget.

So the mental image of a house of in disarray is a very striking image due to the memory of the thing.

So the brief reminder is I think I have like, let's see, I didn't have cell phones then, so I didn't really know what the time was, but I did have.

My Bible.

You're seeing some skillet stickers proborly eighty six teenage mutant Ninjatitals came out in two thousand and three, so that was like I knew were a thing.

I might have had a different Bible at the time, and I'm not even sure if I was bringing my Bible to youth group all the time, but there's something I needed to get.

It might have been like I borrowed a CD from someone that I want to listen to, but then I got I was in the van to go to church and I'm like, oh no, I'm not going to see this person for seven more days.

And I promised that I would return to CD to then get another one so I could listen to it.

This is how I get the media.

I'm like, hold on real quick, I need to go back to my room.

So I unlocked the door, ran back upstairs, and things were unsettled.

Shall we say it was like a game of pickup sticks.

You know, you put sticks in a container, you shake them up, and then you just kind of drop a PLoP and the way that they fall interlace over each other is like it all happened simultaneously.

What specific are we talking about?

All the chairs, all the tables, or just like certain things that you.

Noticed dress I had shelves on top of dressers, and they all just fell kind of into the center of the room, kind of off center, so like everything that was able to move had moved and sort of claps in on itself.

In the three bedrooms upstairs, they weren't that way because I was just in my bedroom, ran downstairs to get in the van ready to go to church, and remembered, Oh, but what I did?

I mention this happened three weeks, three wednesdays in a row.

You didn't mention that.

I thought this was a one time event.

It wasn't a one time event.

It happened three wednesdays in a row during this some like August, like late August.

And you're what like thirteen, fifteen, seventeen.

Uh, this is like a personal puberty question.

I'm trying to remember, well, when did the puberty happen thing?

And I haven't quite imported because there's there's totterns exactly exactly.

So this was.

A series of Wednesday evenings in August when I was twelve or thirteen going to youth group.

Okay, I mean this is like the classic prime poltergeist age, right, because when you go through puberty, it seems that sometimes this is where the anomalies get reported more often than not.

If there's a kid around going through puberty, then your chairs might get rearranged.

What I hadn't mentioned is like just bringing it back to Marie, the fact that you know, strange things had happened while we were away.

So you know, we left the house and we came back, and then that would be like ninety minutes to two hours, which would give plenty of time for neighbors who might have had a key to walk in and have a little mischief on our behalf.

Yeah, I'm curious.

Let me just cut in really quick.

Yeah, because some people will hear that and they'll already be gravitating towards a whole bunch of different explanations, right, and I'm sure one of those explanations, let's just say, like ghosts.

Let's just put like a big category that includes everything supernatural and called ghosts, right, But then there's everything that doesn't go in that category, Like what are the things that you were thinking of that wouldn't go into the supernatural ghost category?

Like someone snuck in and rearranged everything within two minutes, or like what what did you go through in terms of trying to explain all this.

Well, after the first week, the first instant, there was multiple instances of it's a various degree.

But when it happened on these specific Wednesdays, this is when I started thinking like, should I leave like a trail of dust on doors and fingerprints to see if there'd be human things.

This is where I started thinking of like putting up security cameras.

This is before trail cams were a thing.

I don't think I had a camcorder at that point, so I was, you know, trying to figure this out, Well, how would you get evidence of whatever was doing this activity that?

But I didn't have a lot of time because I was doing school and then I have to go to the youth group and we come home and they have to go to sleep because there's just like going to school the next day.

The type of idea And did you tell anyone as soon as this happened, Just keep it all to yourself.

It wasn't something I was publicizing because I didn't know what it was.

You weren't like mom, dad the crazy.

They knew because it happened to their bedroom as well.

So there we had to pick everything back up which was kind of the annoying aspect of it.

So at that point I was like, I don't know what this is.

I didn't have the mental capacity to care.

It was just an annoying thing that I had to deal with.

And then it happened again.

But the third week, I was like, it's whatever.

It didn't didn't feel like it was something I should even be thinking about or concerning with it.

I had other concerns.

I was not the biggest concern.

But then at that time when I ran back up to my room, that's when I was like, things were in place.

Now, things weren't in place with it in a very small window like two minutes.

If you had put up the trailcams or if your parents had decided it, do you think the observer effect would have canceled that out and it would have stopped the activity.

That's what I was thinking about more recently, this idea that had I been there to observe it, had would it have happen?

Toy story rules that sort of idea, So like, if I could keep an eye on something, then something isn't going to happen.

But in the periphery of my vision, maybe I could see something out of the corner of my eye, that sort of thought, but to have direct vision on the thing.

And maybe I think that's why we've gotten to the point of like security cameras everywhere now, because then everything everybody will have to be in their best to behavior.

I'm seeing the security camera up in the corner of this screen.

It's like we didn't have those.

Cats off right now.

The little red light's not blinking, so you can tell it all.

Oh, it's not recording, okay, so we can get away with things.

Oh yeah, no one's going to see this perfect perfect.

I got so the because in my mind there's two if if I have to boil it down to be over at least simplistic and just get two options in retrospect, looking back at the concept of putting a camera up to see if this would happen that third Wednesday, for example, one one line of thought, like one fork in that road, is that observer effect means it would have stopped it or would have like it wouldn't have been caught on camera.

But the other one is almost like investing in bitcoin early, like what if you're the one what if you're the person that finds visual proof that gets solidified, just like the like the Patterson Gimlin bigfoot footage, right, Like you could be that guy.

And I'm I'm not saying that there has to be like ego involved.

I'm just saying that out of all the different instances out there, the next person that gets like some really good conclusive ghosts or supernatural footage, that's not a paranormal activity advertisement like that's kind of like getting a bitcoin or is the wrong way think of it.

I'm not thinking of it in terms of the metaphysical mysteries.

I'm thinking more in the mythopoetic mysteries as to well what does it mean, what is the meaning of it, and what is the effect of the thing.

I'm not going to be able to go back and recreate all of the factors again time being either linear thing, a linear progression, or seasonal thing.

It was like, I can't go back to account for all the qualities of the situation at the time to recreate it.

So you can't make mercury go back or in and out of retrograde and like align everything as it needed to be for that exact instance.

So the word catalyst, like something triggered a cosmic trigger was pulled, something happened, and then there was a visual effect of something.

I don't have all of the information as to what caused that, but I think it would have been everything leading up to that point caused the exteriorization of inner thoughts.

And there's other people involved, so the group mind effect saying, well, my family and and the pastor that we had at the time, who was the spiritual advisor who got the call to say, and we came home and we're a little bit upset about something.

Can you offer us some guidance and sort of like a soothing, calming voice of reason.

And then later on when I spoke to him a few years ago, I saw him again.

I was like, do you remember that, that those those Wednesday nights when you get a phone call from us?

And he said, yeah, I remember, he said, I think they maybe had the idea or they just had a sense of who it was going to be.

And his wife was like, you know, you don't have to answer the phone right now.

You don't have to answer that call.

But being a man in the cloth, you know that is the calling.

When someone calls, you need to be on call and answer the call to provide whatever sort of guidance necessary at the time.

So you, your parents, and the spiritual advisor of the cloth at this at this point, is anyone thinking demonic or possession or haunting or anything in that genre of words, or is every is everyone dancing around saying things?

You know what?

You know?

I'm getting that, like because I assume that you're the if it's your house, you don't want to be the first one to drop the D word, right, You don't want to just drop that D until someone else says it.

Like you almost want a person of the cloth to imply what it means.

And otherwise it's almost like a home inspector.

You're just hoping that they're just like, hey, I know, everything seems normal, you know, like sometimes the house settles and that's what's causing the weird supernatural like phenomenon.

Yeah, there was that immediate sense of call the pastor.

It's like a crime hasn't been committed, so you don't call the police.

The ghostbusters are in a movie.

They don't have a real life counterpart.

So then who do you call but your spiritual advisor And that's his job, but he's not equipped to handle the job.

Of going above and beyond figuring out the metaphysical mysteries of the thing.

The point is there's young children involved, their young family, they're in our church.

We just want to de escalate and calm things down, recognizing that it may be spiritual warfare in that sense that there's some sort of oppositional thing happening to cause sort of a friction which would catalyze the event in an exterior way.

And I'm saying that's that's where I came across the phrase catalytic exteriorization phenomenon when I was doing some research for it.

Man, so many I've got questions for people that aren't even here right now, And I'm just thinking that this concept of like a of a spirit that's trying to communicate or some kind of maybe am assigning malevolence to it, because that's ultimately it's like, if it's supernatural, I don't understand it, so I'm afraid of it.

So I guess it has to be evil, But I'm thinking, like it could it could harm you.

If something can and rearrange your furniture, then it could also do that while you were in the house and rearrange it right on top of you and technically kill you.

Right, Like, there's versions where I've heard a lot of different people have ghost stories that I know of people that I don't question their credibility whatsoever.

And one of them is just like big items just being like knocked off of top shelves or cabinets, And I'm always thinking, like, well, what if you just happen to be on the ground looking under a cabinet or something and this thing falls from you know, six or seven feet up and it just like slams on your head on the right angle.

Technically, these would seem just like oh the windows rattle and things getting off off the shelves.

That implies that it could kill you, like something could murder, like a ghost could murder you.

And again, forgive my like just you know, oversimplification of this, but that's essentially what it boils down to.

You know.

This is where I take a step back to say that I'm not thinking in terms of again the metaphysical sort of opus opera operandi, what is modus operana?

What like what is going on here?

I'm gonna have to use some foreign words to sort of work through the language of describing the ineffable in some ways, like this is something that you don't talk about in polite society.

People are going to be very uncomfortable to bring this up.

There's no easy way to say, Okay, we're going on a metaphysical journey together.

Prepare yourself.

We're going to have to face reality.

Well this is relative too again, right, So if you were to take a sampling of the people in your zip code, for example, yeah, they'd probably people that are like what a weirdo, like don't call me again, maybe even put out like a trespass on you.

But if you were say able to get into like a specific psychology slash like mit person's you know, like like like reading group, now all of a sudden you could have like your actual like vengkmins and like your actual Ghostbusters.

They just don't realize it yet.

But there are groups of people that would be wildly fascinated and actually have resources to investigate this in like extreme depth.

It's like, yeah, okay, an earthquake happened, let's send in the geologists.

They're only going to see the after effects.

Yeah.

True.

So it's like you call in the Ghostbusters.

The underlying assumption that there was a cause followed by an effect of which I witnessed the immediate effect.

See, I was the only person, so I was the only witness of what seemed to be an immediate fact because I was in the space.

I left the space had an inkling.

Oh, I got to return the space, and when I returned to the space, whatever had happened had happened.

The exteriorization of the phenomenon, if there was some sort of getting all the kids in the van to go to church, and there's that sort of I don't want to, I don't want you know, it's like I want to stay home tonight, or I don't feel it's like nowhere you're going.

Well, all that sort of psychic energy together of we're doing the thing.

You can't say no, and there's some psychic poshbacks to say I'd rather not do this, that being in the air.

I mean, certainly, that's that's what we're looking to apply a reason to it.

But I have to step back and pause the tape to say, why do we think that we had anything to do with anything.

We were just at a place in time time experienced something and then maybe it didn't happen after that.

So when it happened three times in a row, then it's sort of like, Okay, this seems to be a pattern, But then we can't predict accurately a fourth or a fifth time.

We don't know at the time or even now.

Do you question your sanity over this event?

This is me not questioning my sanity, but rather stating again how I felt then was I don't know.

And the adults in the room here, they don't have a sufficient answer, So the best they can do is just calm things down, de escalate, and offer some spiritual support, some prayers for peace and guys in this sort of thing to call it, I.

Don't know, it's insufficient, wildly insufficient for me that that would be the answer, like it would eat away at me.

I would think of nothing but that event for the rest of my life.

That's why I'm saying, as a symbolic representation of the strange reality, the image is forever ingrained in like three neural grooves in my grain matter for this thing, and then other events as well contribute to that.

So what I'm saying is my own world view is framed by the things that I seeked out and then the things that I just was a witness to.

Did you ever at the time or even afterwards, did you ever I know you're saying that you weren't trying to figure out what cause and how it happened, But I feel if I was in that position, and I know we're not the same person, but I'd be thinking, like, what did I do to call it?

Was it?

Like?

Because I saw that Marilyn Manson poster at Funko Town?

Is that?

Like?

Was is it my fault?

Did I watch a scary movie?

Did I, you know, eat after midnight?

Sure?

Did I get water on me?

Like?

What did you ever consider like it was your fault and that something you did contributed.

To it, like the placing the guilt on a certain party.

That was certainly thoughts that were at but again being able to de escalate my own mind to say, you know what, let's just wait and see.

A little bit.

What about anyone else?

The spiritual advisor parents that did anybody at any point try and say here's what's causing it, or this might be the cause, or it was just one hundred percent, let's all just say a prayer together and calm down and have some tea.

There is probably conversations between different family members about it that I was not privy to, and maybe I didn't want to be a part of It's his fault, fault.

I saw him playing Final Fantasy A.

I know it was, you know, at that point it would have been Legend of Zelda on Contento Entertainment says it with the gold cartridge and the manual had you know, symbols on it.

I mean, the printed manual for Legend of Zelda had these really strange symbols on it, and it was this fantasy adventure.

It has the tri force which could be construed as the Holy Trinity though no.

Right, but the idea that certain totem objects in one's home could have a resonant effect, and only having pictures of Christ and crucifixes and Christmas trees, all the Christian accoutrement somehow would would have the overall resident effect of on this is a Christian family, Christian home sort of thing, so maybe that would outweigh one little tri force over there.

Again, I'm sensing a small pattern here that if there was if the devil got a foot in the door to your soul, it sounds like it would have been through video games, because video games, for whatever reason doesn't sound like you had an access to a good selection through just the Bible friendly stores where you could get your music or your books or everything else from.

Well, so you know, I don't want to go on the complete tangent of purchasing unlicensed Nintendo Entertainment System games through a Christian book distributor catalog to receive Bible based video games through Wisdom Tree.

So I had every single Wisdom Tree NYS game and there are oftentimes Christmas presents and Easter presence.

And tell you those are, by the way, go for a lot of money on EVA.

Just that I know that that's not what your vibe is.

But I'm just letting.

Them complete inbox.

Yes, I understand.

I understand the burden of having those relics complete in box with everything in them.

Yeah, I understand that.

You have them complete inbox.

Wow, that's this is amazing man.

Okay, all right?

So because because they were purchased brand new, so I remember, you know the tax return season, Now we got a little bit of extra money.

Now we can finally purchase the overpriced brand new video game from the catalog.

What was overpriced?

Because because I remember video games at that time, new we're like fifty sixty dollars if you went to Toys r Us or something around this time period.

This was after the superint then it was released, so they were they were still selling them from the catalog at full price, and I at some point I recognized it made more sense to go to a used store to purchase an inexpense of game because I might not like it.

But my parents' attitude was if they're going to play video games, there should be some Bible verses in them.

So they were willing, as were other parents, willing to pay full price for the new object because of the spiritual quality of the thing.

Let me ask, did in your opinion, did any of that work.

Did it make you more receptive to Bible verses that your parents were buying you Bible specific games or do you think it had no impact?

Well, having the scripture memorization certainly sets a framework from which I will have like the instant recall or the thought that comes in mind as a reaction would be a Bible verse.

So you said that you were able to use the Bible.

Video games is the monic devices to memorize different aspects of the Bible.

So there's certain times when you're accessing Bible information, you're calling up like the Noah's Arc Mario Brothers bootleg.

Well, so there was a.

Game called Spiritual Warfare, which was basically a Legend of Zelda clone.

So it was a top down view and you'd go around and get objects to be able to interact with the world.

In this game, they had fruits of the spirit, so you were a character walking on the map hurling fruits at sinners and cities, and then the demons would get out of them, and then you have to shoot the fruit at the demons to then make sure that they were their soul was saved.

Were they just swapping out sprites and music from actual Zelda?

Is that how they were making these games.

They were a company called Color Dreams, and they were kind of doing like a reverse engineer spright swapping thing.

What they did do is they had their secular version of the game and then they swapped out sprites to turn into a Christian version of the game.

So there was this.

Skateboarding game where you're a cool skateboarding guy and you're trying to get to save your girlfriend who's about to be disrobed by the bad guys.

And at the end of each scene she'd have less and less clothing that's not Christian friendly.

Let's call it Sunday Funday.

And now the story of the game is it's Sunday morning and you're trying to get to church on time.

So that's one on your So the.

Skateboard remained, the enemies remained, the end screens changed, and then they added some sort of spiritual component to say that this is a Christian skateboarder going to church.

What do you think of Let's take that example, like right now for you, I don't care what you thought at the time, but like, right now, do you think that that's a case of your money is going towards a company that ultimately doing things that you're opposed to, or is it that like you're still thankful that the company provided a Bible skateboard game, like they couldn't.

They could have just not provided anything at all, and then you wouldn't have had a skateboard game to play.

It's like that meme that we have today where it's like we have Zeld at home and it's Sunday and it's a spiritual warfare game, or you know, we have we have that at Home, but it's it's salty.

The Singing Songbook, it's like it's like not quite a replacement for it, it's not quite swapping out certain things to make it Christian approved.

And I did want to talk about fan edits in terms of like movies where maybe certain things have been removed from the film to make it more family friendly, or like when you ride on an airline, they have like the Airline Improved film, where they'd remove certain things that could be offensive, like any movies about airplanes crashing would not be shown on the in flight entertainment in certain.

Movies, except when Loose Change came out, they played on certain version flights a.

Promotion that's interesting.

I don't think they kept it on long, but they definitely did that, so I get.

But the ultimate question I think that I'm stabbing at is that is, do you have any view on the company itself that it's either a profiting off of Christians while not being Christian itself, because they also had this more illicit version of that same video game, and if if they were truly Christian, I guess like setting like an unrealistic bar, then they wouldn't have even made that the nude version, they only would have made the Christian version.

So is it that the company itself shouldn't sh not be supported and ultimately, like, no one should have been even buying the Bible Skater Die game because the company is making this other filth.

Or is it that let the company do what it does, you know, las fair attitude, but like, we will purchase this Bible friendly version because we want our kids, or you might personally like I want to just consume Bible friendly media.

So like, is there even like a moral debate in your head?

Clearly the market decided that they wanted these religious versions.

And when I talk about the joys of walking into a Christian Bible bookstore in the nineties, there was a whole mystery on the shelfs of what any of this stuff was.

And again buyer's remorse.

Who knows you'd feel bad to bring it back because you didn't like the thing, so you'd sit with it.

You'd learn to like it and make them all acquired tastes, is what I'm hearing.

There is that aspect, and the idea that in America we would celebrate Easter and Christmas and birthdays with gifts was already well established.

Now what those gifts were going to be.

Well, here's a whole catalog of safe things that you could circle.

It's not like the Toys RS catalog or the Fleet Farm Christmas Catalog or a series catalog.

No, it's the Christian Book Distributors catalog, which were sent to pastors who would then use that catalog to purchase tithing baskets like felt tithing baskets and wafers for communion and communion table, all the accoutrement that would go with religious ritual and running churches and things, plus books to put in the Christian library.

Some churches would have libraries where they would buy the media and put it on the shelves.

So, whether it was the church, the families, the homeschool, there was people flushed with cash buying this stuff.

So they kept selling it and they kept producing it.

What denomination were you again, Pentecostal?

Do you Pentecostal believe in Holy water?

Do they believe in it?

I was familiar.

I was more familiar with the idea of anointing oil.

And the catalog would sell anointing oil and little jars.

So a lot of the deacons would carry the anointing oil in jars with them and like pocket size, kind of like a trial sized cologne type container.

Is there any expectation that an anointing oil would have the same properties as holy water is usually ascribed.

Well, the symbolic representation of going through the ritual and having the authority of being a deacon in the church ordained, having the credentials to then use the oil as a physical manifestation of touching the person and leaving the trace of the oil in a cross on the forehead.

Now you've been blessed, you've been anointed.

And that was one of the things that happened after the Wednesday night event where we came home, we prayed, we were all anointed, and then we calmed on and went to sleep.

And then it's like, well, let's get on with our lives here.

Let's not continue fighting a battle, because again, who's to say it's even a battlefield.

Now I'm at the point to say right time, right place, or I was just at a place and then things happened, this type of thing where it could be completely a causal.

So this is where we get into the idea of synchronicity, where a broken clock is right twice a day.

Well, I don't I don't know if a causal is the right word.

A causal would be like without cause period, right because because clearly if we're taking if we're laser focusing on this one particular, and let's combine all three as if it were just one.

But I understand that the repetition emphasizes it.

It makes it more than just a false memory, especially after the third time.

This is something that is actually changing physical reality and some capacity objectively, right, Like, this was not in your mind.

This is not a subjective thing that you were going through that maybe you're just seeing things on that third time.

Is that a right assumption.

That is why I brought it up in the first place, because it was witnessed by my family and the pastors.

So the group mind was not a group hallucination.

It was physical in terms of the metaphysical.

That's where I step back and say, I'm not hot this it's not a fresh crime scene.

As soon as as soon as other people walked in and we started moving things around and then just like putting things back together, it's the crime scene is now influenced by other things.

So it wasn't a hermetically sealed event in time that could be studied by anyway.

So I went into the folkloric mythopoetic interpretations, which then led me to Carl Jung, who was writing about some of the stuff.

So that's where I stumbled across the phrase.

And I don't have the exact memory of where I found it exactly, but I wrote the word catalytic exteriorization phenomenon, and now recently I was like, I'm going to track down the source of that phrase, having an understanding of the meaning of it in my own mind and wanting to understand what the literature says.

So in my search for this is going to get a little literary, little academic.

But that's kind of what Young and Freud are, their food for the academic grist mill, where people are just chewing on every word they say and then writing books about it.

There was a guy who translated the book from the German and that's where I found the phrase.

So Gerhard, where Wehr wrote the the oh come on, he exclaimed that sheer bosh as a character reacting to someone saying that that is an example of a catalytic exteriorization phenomenon.

So I will jump to the chase to say that was a phrase found in translation, not lost in translation.

It was a phrase created as far as I understand it, by gerhard ware to explain what was being in the German So he used his knowledge of the English language to make it more colorful, to give it.

How accurate is the translation, because because the way that it sounds is if it's a Catholic exterior, what was it phenomenon?

Is that the catalytic exterior phenomenon.

So break it down one word at a time.

What was the catalyst for the exterior?

Meaning not in the mind, but in the physical, manifest matter reality.

So there was a catalytic experience I was inner brought manifest in the outer world, and then together it's the phenomenon of the event.

So that's the phrase that I began looking into and finding out that it was going back to the so called event where Carl Jung was in his office and he was discussing synchronicity, and then he heard the loud rap in the bookcase, and then he pointed to it and said, see that's an example because of the timing of the thing.

Because I was speaking about how it's not all on the mind and it physically manifests in the real world.

And then allowed bang knocking in the wall of the bookshelf, and then he pointed to it because on the timeline it happening.

Chronicity.

He's describing a version of synchronicity that involves like a physical thing happening while you're talking about it or referencing it.

Correct So he's saying, there there's an example of it.

Okay, I mean, here's an example that I went through recently that I guess it's it seems like a unique experience, but I don't necessarily know ever, like try and find a phrase for it.

But I was talking to a friend and we were talking about a very specific person that you wouldn't even expect for anyone to know, and that person calls my friend mid conversation as we're talking about them, and it was like, I mean, there were acquaintances, but not friends of any kind, and it was just wild that And I'm sure everyone's gone through something similar where like you're thinking of a thing and then the exact thing happens and you're like, damn, did I actually have any impact on that whatsoever?

And you don't know because you can't capture that moment in time and analyze it in the future.

Precisely.

So that's that's where I was explaining to you last time, how my worldview just sort of came together in this way to say, well, of course things are strange, and there is another layer of reality beyond nuts and bolts, reality.

Beyond beyond the Bible or compatible with the Bible.

How would it be incompatible with the Bible?

I mean, are you asking the questions now?

It's a pretty deep question, but I mean, there it does seem that there are things that would be objectively incompatible with the Bible.

For example, a complete denial of the Holy Spirit, although maybe I'm giving away as very specific denominations ruling on that right, but that that would be one thing is that if you were to advocate suppression or ignorance of, or apathy of the Holy Spirit, then that would technically be incompatible with some versions of the Bible.

Or am I being too hardlined even to make that firm of a stance on that?

I do remember that being kind of the one unforgivable sin.

It's like, you know, sin can be forgiven, but the one unforgivable sin is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit.

And that's a psyde theological discussion for another time, but that was the kind of the one thing to say, well, you know, if you were to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, let me phrase it this way.

If you were going through some sort of chaos magic ritual thing where the goal was to break apart from a religious tradition, you might attempt to do a ritual where doing the ritual, whatever it is, you would blasphem against the Holy Spirit because you've never.

Done on the farms, I got like a whole like the what is the unholy Eucharist and a black mass where you basically profane everything and invert everything.

If you were to join a group to do it, that would be the working of the group.

If you were to be an individual to say, Okay, I'm at this crossroads here where I'm just annoyed by everybody in my local faith community.

I'm going to try.

I'm just going to try to see what happens.

And then you do the thing that you were told to never do, and then does lightning strike you down in that moment?

That type of thing, which sometimes there are immediate reactions, sometimes it's more delayed.

But the course of the person's life after that, does it completely unravel?

Do all of their relationships just fall apart?

Do they turn to drug an alcohol and all the coping mechanisms.

Do they have a complete mental breakdown?

Maybe for some people.

Maybe for some people.

I was fortunate to not have a total mental breakdown over all these little strange things.

In my mind, it was just interesting.

I didn't I didn't find it particularly frightening for me.

I think the most difficult part was the emotional reaction of other people around me, because I wish that they would contain their emotion in such a way that it wouldn't spill over.

So like, what did you have people like freaking out over this when you told.

Them, again being the being the mess cinger to say that our reality is a little bit strange.

This could certainly break people.

So I've found out to be very gentle in introducing these topics.

So give me an example of how you introduced it before you knew that you had to be gentle about it, Like what would the icebreaker be Like, Hey Marcus, hey man, I haven't seen you for a few days, What's what's going on?

What's new since last Wednesday?

I haven't seen you since last Wednesday.

Again, wouldn't bring that to that social situation, not the right time.

But it came up at a certain point right with like some friends at event eventually you broke the news to them, I'm sure to like test the waters, not right away and.

Only after they have gone gone through enough other interesting sort of one call them diet traps, but sort of diametrically opposed journeys of the mind to say, can we play in this area or is it not a safe You kind of test the boundaries with people a little bit too.

I mean, is there a fear of being ostracized from like a small niche community that if you start being the weird ghost boy that like now none of your friends want to play anymore.

Or the opposite you attracted all the goth checks.

So win win, is it sounds like.

Again, Yeah, that's sort of the dynamite that you're trying to deal with.

The you diffuse the situation or you use the dynamite in your favor to blow some shit up and cause a ruckus.

And I mean, if you want to know about peace prize, you use the dynamites what it's named after.

Right right, right, Yeah, I mean that's that was sort of the the wolfging Paulie talking to Young and they're writing all these letters back and forth to each other, so they're documenting all this stuff.

And I had a quote about how I think Young was basically saying, while I'm alive, don't publish an autobiography about my life.

So he already understood the complexities of a rich, inner, spiritual life that could not be written in a linear autobiography where you were start with chapter one birth and then it ends with death and then afterward as well.

This is the effect Carl Jung had the lives of people around him, this sort of thing.

So he was already warning against that.

And probably because of this phrase that I found catalytic exteriorization phenomenon by some guy who translated it into the English in I think nineteen eighty five.

So this was the time when Joseph Campbell was on PBS talking to Bill Moyer and they're bringing out the was it the power of Myth series?

Power of Myth?

Yeah, So this is where I'm now going back and recognizing that I remember reading in the TV guides Joseph Campbell power myth having a sponge like mind, just absorbing all this stuff and knowing that, hey, Arnold is what I'm going to watch tonight.

But as an adult, I'm going to be able to go back to review all of these media things that we have one television house.

We're going to watch the Goonies tonight, eat a big Foot pizza.

That's what we're doing.

All five of us are sitting there and watching it.

But as an adult, with multiple screens and more time on my hands, I can pursue other research methodologies in my own time over the course of my lifetime.

So where I'm at now is I found the phrase catalytic exterior phenomenon that was attributed to young realizing that as far as search engines and AI and all the search that I could do with what was available to me, you know, during the last month, I did not find that exact word for word translation.

So what it was is from that gearhard we're translation and it's not even considered to be the best.

So the actual phrase from Memories, Dreams and Reflection, which was published in nineteen sixty three as the English edition, says I was sitting opposite Freud in his library and we were discussing the paranormal.

I had defended the idea that such phenomena could be connected with the psyche.

Freud was of the opinion that they were to be explained solely in terms of misinterpretation or sensory illusion.

I had not yet finished my argument when a loud noise came for the bookcase some translations like cabinet wooden cabinet.

We both started, and Freud looked at me with a startled expression.

There I said, that's an example of a so called catalytic ex serization phenomenon.

Freud was startled, but then dismissed it as a mere coincidence.

So to me, that is more of a mytho poetic retelling of the dialogue that Freud and Young might have had, whether or not they were actually in his office at the time.

This goes back to a creator retelling of an event.

So, when you write.

A comic book and you know you've got a certain amount of panels to get the message across, how do you get directly to the point in the panel with a few semental panels to set it up?

And this short paragraph gets right to the point because it mentions.

It's not a mere coincidence.

It could be misinterpretation, and it shows Young's view of the thing versus Freud's view of the thing.

But as I've stated already, this wasn't their view of the thing.

This was another guy's view of the thing who was writing his book.

And then later it was translated to English, so that's where the actual phrase originally from.

Okay, that's that's very specific and interesting, and I'm wondering what do you think of Freud's stance on that about Let's say let's say that you you called your spiritual advisor when this had happened, and the spiritual Advisor's like, oh man, I got this uncle from Germany, like he's got he's got some cool ideas.

Let me call him over here.

And Freud shows up, and Freud's like, this is you misinterpreting like some kind of a phenomenon and or like a sensory illusion, Like would that have just been like you don't know what you're talking about, bro, Like this happened three times in a row.

It's not that that would be sort of a black and white either or explanation, which I very quickly found out to be a limited worldview thinking.

So to make things so simple as to shave off all numans and say this is clearly demonic because we represent the good thing.

So any anything that is an annoyance to me somehow is a spiritual attack.

Would be to say that I would always have to be engaged in warfare on or that metaphysical level.

You could stay at that same metaphysical level and invert things and say, like, well, technically in this life unless we're in Hell already, which is a whole nother discussion, but like in this life right now, wouldn't it seem that, like the things that an angel would do to you, it would almost be being corrected by a parent where it might not feel great, Like if an angel has an interact with you in this space, it might actually be uncomfortable or you know, discomforting, versus something that provides just nothing but incarnate pleasure in the material realm, like like a Puerceaturnian urge.

Maybe that would be more likely to be demonic.

So that things that scare you or hurt you or shock you could also be good things.

And that's how we're misinterpreting, like angelic influences demonic influences VI versa.

Sure, so.

I will just go right to where my mind is thinking immediately, it's the idea that because there's children involved, this is on the cusp of puberty and being a teenager which leads into adulthood.

Because there are children involved, I wondered at some point if this was sort of the stage show to say, see, the spiritual reality is real, and this was all the adults putting on this sort of kind of a live action role play of a spiritual scenario to then cement the idea in our minds.

That was a thought at some point to say, again going back the idea that do I trust the adults?

Right?

So in other words, it's so you'd almost be envisioning like dad dressing up as Santa Claus and putting all of the presence under the tree, Like maybe maybe the adults are putting on this big show for the sake of the kids.

But now there's a version where adults are going into a house and rearranging furniture just to be like, see, we told you like this spiritual warfare does exist and supernatural does exist.

I'm saying that was one of the thoughts that came to mind, and any sort of thought that my I limited mind could think was not really a pleasant sort of thought to have.

So I was, if it's a traumatic experience, how does one cope with that or to sort of minimize It's like, I did not want to maximize it.

I did not want to minimize it.

I did not I did not know the shape of the thing.

So my wisdom at that point became, I don't have the tools to measure or to talk about or explain.

So that's just one of the mental images that's going to be filed a way for now, and maybe I can completely forget about it and then it's fine go on with things.

Apparently not, because it sounds like it's it's not still tucked away in that file collecting dust.

Correct, So there are all there are instances of things being filed away.

I mean little little things written down on sheets of paper, little little journals, memories and Okay, so I will say that the thought that writing things down makes them real or true in some way.

So this is the idea of like it's like a hyper sigual or something, having the idea that if I write things down, they would need to be a true account, meaning not clouded by my imagination or my emotions or what my favorite interpretation of the thing would be.

Which seems impossible literally like because this is the same thing with even eyewitnesses in court cases that you just can't get over the fact that people patch a different things.

Like the way that our senses work, the very nature is of an act of patching things together and filling in gaps that we can't fill ourselves.

Correct.

So in watching the media of the time, all the unexplained events and it's a mystery or it's a miracle, these sorts of chicken soup for the soul programs where they'd collect real life anecdotes and then they'd reenact them dramatically.

I would see a lot of those shows and I laugh at them because I immediately kind of understood that the writer, director, producer had a say in what the event was going to be, so it wasn't the actual event being described, So there was a separation there.

Give me an example.

The memories of watching I think packs TV at the time, where they'd have it's a miracle and the story headline would be a mother forgets to set her parking break and her infant toddler crawls behind the car to follow the ball, and then the tire goes over the infant, and the mom races out and has superhuman strength to lift up the tire and grab the baby in that and it's a miracle.

So where did the strength come from the weak mother who doesn't have the arm strength and in another situation could not lift the vehicle.

So then my thought at that point was the tire itself was not causing damage to the child because it was the appearance of such.

So the distance might have been misjudged where it was like the tire was over the No, that it might have been like three feet away.

But now the story is told in such a way where it was a miracle I say, the child.

And then due to the retelling of the story, the believers in the situation want the miracle to be in a miracle, so the details of it are shaped and influenced by the retelling of it to make it more miraculous over time.

This is actually a really good example though, because I remember this exact, same word for word, the exact same story about the mother and the infant and she can lift the car, where does she get all this superhuman strength that you could be completely secular, atheist or agnostic, and this story still was like yeah, man, just it's crazy.

It just shows you how like how the human body can work, and like the mysteries of what we don't know or are capable of, YadA YadA, Like it didn't even necessarily have to be interpreted as some kind of a religious miracle.

So I think everyone went through that same exact scenario and some people are just like, man, it's crazy what you know science can show us or we're capable of versus Man, it's crazy how God can work through us.

That's really the individual having encountered the i'll say myth or the fable or the story, and then that feeds their need in that moment.

So if there's a moment of spiritual crisis and that story gives them the idea that you can be strong when you feel weak and when something or when a challenge that seems insurmountable a rises out of no cause of your own.

Again we're talking cause and responsibility and blame.

It's like things just happen, you will be ready, and then you do the thing.

Don't be afraid of your lack of courage like boy Scouts always be prepared type of a thing.

This is why the spiritual guidance is.

You know, remember these Bible verses, listen to these music in just this content because life is going to be difficult and these these sets of tools will then provide the strength and the courage and the comfort.

This sort of like the power of positive thinking might get into like Nevill Goddard and listening to affirmations and how those have real world effects in the physiology of the brain, neuroplasticity, this type of thing.

How if we were to use neuroplasticity as a metric, do you think that there are certain Christian denominations that have more neuroplasticity and others less.

Yeah.

Absolutely, there are a lot of different churches.

There's a lot of different So when I say church, in my mind, I'm speaking of the building in your community where people physically go and meet.

Now they will describe all of those people together collectively as the capitals church.

I'm talking about a physical building that has a Sunday service and the people there are constituted the congregation.

That sort of thing.

A question of are certain communities church communities congregants having more neuroplasticity and the ability to handle new technologies and thoughts and things.

Certainly there are some of them take on a more positive, life affirming approach to say, we are here to be alongside of you through births and marriages and funerals, these types of things.

That's for a good that's where you find the community.

Now, what seems to be more popular is the opposite of that.

Here's the deal.

The Book of Revelation talks about prophetic end times and because of these politicians all aligning and the moon being a blood moon, well let's not be afraid.

But now they're invoking the element of fear and uncertainty.

So now by providing answers to prophetic questions and giving a framework for evaluating that that attracts a different vibe, which makes the tribe a little bit different.

So I to want to put words in your mouth.

So here's how I'm interpreting that.

Almost if you were to isolate this from the religious connotations of it, that positive thinking might be more neuroplastic than negative thinking, or that like doom thinking, and that doom thinking lead to less neuroplasticity.

The example I'll give is religious substance dependence counseling.

So if people are using substances drugs alcohol specifically, and have a chemical dependence to the thing, the result of having a spiritual component to the therapy, having a spiritual religious sort of there's a thing greater than I am that I can lean upon, tends to have a better result where people aren't reoffending or returning to what their addiction was.

So this idea of setting the captors free from their drug, pornographic, whatever addictions that might form around life is tough.

Going to a spiritual advice.

It might even be court ordered at that point where if it's a court ordered thing like well you got to get your life together, Well, there's a bed at the teen challenge.

This is this real thing that I'm aware of.

It's a teen and adult challenge.

They do chemical dependency courses where it's a live in community and you go and you have a bunk bed and then you go through the rituals of hygiene and then cleaning your mind, cleaning your body, and then expelling the chemical dependence thing and then having to figure out well, also they have to consider how do you wean people off of these highly addictive substances, So you have to have that and the spiritual comonent, so it's not just one or the other.

Well, I don't know.

It's an interesting concept one that I've actually, I want to say struggles the wrong word.

I'll say struggled with Is that the only real options?

And I'm being hyperbolic a little bit, but in terms of like the actual options, it might as well be the only options for NA or AA or a number of other similar groups.

Is this this overall requirement of you have to believe in a patent something that it's more powerful than yourself.

And when I got into like a very annoying, nitpicky situation in a i'll just say court ordered version of have a new ten one of these, the one of the guys running one of these things, he was just like, he was like, look, kid, the president.

Does a president have more power than you?

I was like yeah, and he was like there you go.

Like that, let's go to the next step.

Like so some people can think of it as like a very utilitarian thing, like pulling out card right, like like something has more power than you.

But I always interpreted that as that you have to believe in some sort of a supernatural higher than Like you can't just straight up be a true atheist and then go through NA or go through And I almost wonder if they're the shooting themselves in the foot a little bit of like think about all the people we could be helping if we didn't isolate those that didn't have like a like a spiritual I guess door open versus.

Maybe I'm thinking about it all wrong, Like you can't, like you can't actually fix somebody's addictions without God or without religion or without this concept of something higher than yourself.

But I don't know, I feel that that would be objectively wrong.

There have to be people out there that have gotten over an addiction that it didn't rely on spiritual means or is like I'm just ignoring the gardening.

We're talking paramoid American occult topics.

So I will say that the aspect of the aggregor is already implanted in the person's life.

So the person that would go towards a Christian discipleship program to overcome their chemical dependency being as a chemical dependency, it's a substance.

You put it in your body, it changes your body, and now you're told you can't put that in your body anymore, and you choose because of the insurmountable sort of whole you've dug yourself into.

Now it's somebody else's concern.

So the so the state steps into say you've got kids, you got a family, you got that, you got things that you are responsible for.

We need to turn you back into an executive decision machine where you can decide your own life, because there's already the aggrigre built into that person's mindset.

There neuroplasticity having hardened around certain aspects of faith and religion.

Meaning the book is the Bible that sets out the morality for culture, and it's the good book and God is good and the trend maybe, but having that basic understanding of you know, I pledge legions as a flag, one nation under God, God government.

This type of thing, those agregois that exists in the mind.

So they work because the person already has that language set installed in their mind.

So if someone comes from an atheist family and it's all atheism and the chemical dependency thing is going to be a challenge, they may find faith and spirituality to be beneficial at some point, or they might just have hardened against it entirely.

I'm specifically talking about people who have that set of religious ideas already implanted in their mind.

Because we're America and we say the Pledge of Allegiance, we say under God, it's on our coinage.

Everyone understands that this is a god fearing nation, our government, this type of thing, separation of churchren state aside, there's an understanding of this is our cultural heritage.

And this is well a little bit I mean, my maybe completely incorrect interpretation of this, but that a lot of the Founding fathers were sort of deists as opposed to some specific denomination.

And I guess one extra level out of me making more assumptions.

But my interpretation of deism is sort of like if I have to use toy stories the example, Andy's gone away to college.

He's not playing with these toys anymore.

So now these toys are left contemplating like our creator did our creator abandon us?

Is it because we're bad?

Is there something that we can do to correct this?

And in reality, again my interpretation of deism is just like Andy just doesn't care anymore.

He's like God, God made his thing.

He played in a sandbox and now he's off playing in some other cooler sandbox and we're just kind of an out one, maybe not even an afterthought.

It's just like, oh, I think I left that box in the attic in my parents' house.

Whatever.

If they want to sell, they can sell it.

And I'm not saying I'm a deist, but that's my interpretation of deism, and that's my interpretation of the true religion of some of the Founding Fathers, at least relative to what someone might think as like a pious Catholic Protestant Pentecostal approach, where it's maybe more involved, like Jesus is here with me, God is accessible to me, Versus I don't know where God went.

He went out for a pack of smokes, and he hasn't been back in twenty thousand years.

And this will circle around the greater mysteries, the deeper mysteries of this sort of understanding.

And there's maybe two worldviews on this position of the mysteries.

Is it a puzzle or is it a mystery?

Meaning if all of this is a puzzle that can be solved, then you could do a metaphysical detective work to figure out what caused this and what is the source of this, and then it can be solved through like talk therapy, and then you can solve the thing and then it's resolved.

I am more inclined to understand the mysteries as something to be experienced and pondered, and there might never be resolution.

I think there's a third path here too, if I can just inject one.

But okay, there's the accept everything because it's a mystery.

There's the approach of like, let's break this thing down, deconstruct it, find the formula so that we can like quote unquote solve it.

Then there's also a version that's like, hey, if we can find out how this thing works, we can make this run.

You know my lights.

I can use this to get my job done faster.

Like I can exploit this this phenomenon, whether or not it's divine, Like if it's objectively real, then I can exploit it and it can turn into the new fossil fuel.

And that's somewhere along what I might call a middle path method trying to avoid the extremities, trying to not force polarities, because as soon as you begin to force polarities, then you're going to have magnetism or the opposite, where things will attract or push away from each other.

Let me so with you mentioned dichotomy earlier, you mentioned polarizations, So I feel like I'm not putting this too much on you, that you can appreciate those flags being planted, so that you know what the lay of the land is, that you know like, Okay, here's my relative distance from this other approach.

So let me just ask you in a more specific way, do you think that Aleister Crowley was a net positive or a net negative on humanity?

Like his very existence in his works.

So having existed and published his writings and his experimentations with drugs and alcohol and mind altering substances.

Popularized beyond just published, but popularized.

Certainly.

Certainly, if not him, then someone else.

Right, at some point these ideas would emerge and maybe it's from a third mind.

Maybe it's again this idea of a hallucination or a fountain translation thing when cultures cross.

And I recognize now when we were talking about the faith based drug and alcohol recovery program, Well, maybe you're not a Caucasian, white, blonde air American with a Christian background, so you might be like Well, you know, I don't want to.

I don't want to go hang out with all the drunk herons in the drunk tank Karen Tank over there, and they're going to read their Bible.

That's just not my flavor.

That's recognizing that.

What I'm understanding is at a cultural crossroads where there's this mix mix, mix of like a cosmopolitan thing where you got three flavors in your ice cream, so you have chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry, but then you don't eat them separately.

You stir it up.

It all melts together in the melting pot.

And now what is the flavor profile the Neapolitan?

Yeah, the Neapolitan.

I'm saying cosmopolitan, because that's how we describe a city.

The ice cream is Neopolitan.

Well, who brought that about to the city?

You know?

Did the Italians bring pizza to Chicago?

Or who claims that sort of of idea of the invention?

So to answer your question of Alistair Crowley, if not him, it would have been someone else.

So then we're talking about the ideas of occult currents of like a river flowing and tributaries and like the separation of the fresh water and the salt.

Water.

That's basically maybe a religious organization to say we are a fresh water.

Our church name is Living Waters.

We're not about that oceanology, that that salty stuff.

Where Again, our talking song book is named Salty after the Psalms, the books of the Bible.

It has nothing to do with saltiness or bitterness or going against what is a positive sort of Christian lifestyle.

So all these words have meaning, and they're intertwined and interchanged and trying to convey a message.

This is where there's biblical authority, and you have commentaries the exegesis on the books to say this is as close to the authorial intent as we can get based off of all this other providing evidence.

So this is the best theological interpretation and we're sticking with it.

Other churches aren't really concerned about that because they just want to have the fellowship and have the marriage celebrations and do the baptisms and this type of thing.

You can definitely dance well, just because I'm still trying to pin you down on any yes or no, true or false answer.

So the idea of like rock and roll music causing people to rock and roll, right, I discover that if your feet are not leaving the ground, then you're just kind of moving around a little bit.

It's not actually dancing.

So the definition of dancing would be moving your feet to the beat and moving around.

If you don't have client died and just doing a shoulder movement.

Well, but if you don't have feet though, you can still dan.

What about a breakd answer that's been around on their back?

Are they doing it to a DC talk song?

Is Carmen involved?

If it helps you, then yes, right right right?

But I get I get point point being that I'm really interested if if you think that.

So, for example, Aleister Crowley, I was like, is he a net positive?

Net negative?

Your answer is like, well, if not him, then it would have been someone else.

But I is there no answer from you on whether Alistair Crowley himself was a net negative or net positive?

Like it could have been just some boring dude that didn't popularize it as well as Alistair Crowley did.

Right.

So the evidence that exists for me having this opinion exists through the Weaving Spiders cults and mums that were held on Saturday nights.

People would gather together and when I pitched the idea that hey, this is our ninety third episode.

Well, what does ninety three mean?

It can only mean this one thing.

So this is what we're talking about tonight, everybody.

Are you ready?

There were certain people who were saying that they would not publicly declare that he was a positive force, and that they would only pooh pooh him.

To say that, clearly, the disclaimer needs to be that we are not advocating for his ideas.

Okay, my very explanation, my very push to explore the ideas because they are in the public, is evidence of me saying that, clearly, this is a tool and some people could cut their fingers off if it's misused.

But to hold it back from adult conversation or to say that it's clearly evil in wickedness, I've never gone on the record to say that I've said these ideas exist, and as a metaphysical physician sort of working with these tools for healing and wholeness and wellness, clearly the tools set offered through Crowley's rituals have been catalysts for consciousness expansion.

Now, whether or not someone's consciousness expanded to the point where their morality tended more towards a gray area and then they had rationalization for committing acts of terrible things.

Again, that goes back to personal responsibility.

Right, just because Crowley wrote about some doing some of these things for you to then go and do them and then site, well, I can do it because this guy wrote a book about doing it, so therefore I'm justified and doing it.

So I could see how some people would see that as net negative and let's just not even bring him up.

Let's where if you do bring him up, make sure you condemn him.

There's also a version of this again, like I guess my twelve or thirteen year old mind where there was a genuine concern that if I went and read that Anton Leavey Satanic Bible, which I know now is it was just kind of like an internet troll post a little bit, but that there was like a very real thought in my mind that you know, I could go to hell if I go and I if I purchased that book and I bring it home and I read it, that there's like something bad could happen.

I would get possessed or a poltergeist, or I'd get an f or I'd fall down and scrape my knee, or something bad could happen to me and that that would be the reason, like that thing, what would have been the catalyst?

And I didn't even know who the how Alista Crowley was at this time.

Alistair Crowley has if you feel that way about Anton Levy, then you could definitely feel that way one hundredfold against Alistair Crowley.

So it's a very interesting point for me when I hear about other people that are similar that if they talk about them, they have to put all these disclaimers out.

It would almost be if you were doing a like, hey did the Holocaust really happen?

Episode, and then you'd have to open it up with a whole bunch of disclaimers like look, we're not Nazis, we don't believe in Hitler, all these things.

You have to like make sure that you're not associating with this personality.

So Crowley is definitely one of those with when you're talking about like religion or occultism.

But is d so you're more neutral on this.

It seems like is there anyone at all from all of history that you're thinking like that guy was a net negative?

Like we never should have had that guy.

Yeah, I've thought about that as far as like claims to being the most evil and wickedest man on earth.

I would not attribute that to Alisa Crowley or Robert Plant or led Zeppelin or or Ozzy Osbourne.

To some people could be seen as a very frightening figure because of his stage shows, and then you know, his final appearance of Mo, Mo, I'm Coming Home is like you're going to tear up watching that, and then you realize this guy was an artist and that my mom, I'm coming home thing that's going to emotionally move a person.

Now, someone who doesn't want to be emotionally moved by a secular artist is just not going to watch any Ozzy Osbourne to begin with.

So someone who's not willing to read, in his own words, Diary Drug Fiend Alisa Crowley, that person is severely limited in their tool set.

And would I trust them with greater metaphysical mysteries.

No, I would not.

I like that honestly, man, I think that you're you're helping me slowly define a bar that like.

I would prefer that everyone in my talking circle, anyone that I have a conversation with, has both read the entire Bible and has also read Diaryva Drug Fiend and has an equal opinion on both.

Well, I mentioned like Carl Jung's Memories, Dreams, Reflections that's been translated to English and now there's audiobook version, so it's it's more easily accessible.

I know there's a lot of people who will talk Carl Jung and we call his name Jung, and you know, it's like they've only ever in their own mind read the work in their own mind, they never talked to anybody else about it.

And then the way they pronounce certain words, they clearly haven't gone to a car a young fan club to understand what we say, young, it's not Jung.

There's people that say Alistir Crawley, and then people who know him it's crow Le.

So if they're purposely or mispronouncing the person's name, that's sort of a red flag of like are they purposely doing that?

But now the idea I want to talk about before we forget it is this idea of authorial intent and like historical revisionism.

So going back and watching certain movies on Disney Plus, for example, there's going to be uh screen with texts say that this was a relic of its time and cultural sensitivities have changed.

Certain aspects of the movie have been changed to reflect modern sensibilities.

Now I understand that children are voracious consumers and they just want to watch all the cartoons.

They don't care about what it means, they just want to see it.

And a parent's like, okay, that's fine.

But at some point if we watch Star Wars and we have to settle the argument of hand Solo the content of his character.

There's a scene in a cantina where you know his little phase or curve.

No, he doesn't, he doesn't shoot first because the version I saw was him reacting to the bad and using his weapon of self defense.

Yeah, but you saw the modified ze Fruiter footage that's missing, like the thirteen frames, right.

So the weaponization of only presenting one version of a story is very upsetting to the artist.

There's a movie called Phantom of the Opera Brian de Palmer film.

Familiar with it?

You mean movie based on the play?

Yes, the Phantom of the Opera film.

The Palma had put in this idea of a Swan song being one of the names in there, and then one of the led Zeppelin people are like, no, we're gonna We're gonna use that idea.

So at some point there's a timeline of who came up with the idea first and when the film was released on the big screen.

Before it could be released on the big screen, because of legal reasons, they had to go back and change what would have been the definitive version final edit of the film, and they had to mask over the Swan song imagery.

It was just in the background, but they had to change that for fear of being reprimanded.

So then before the movie could be released, because of the fear of a legalistic sort of attack on the film creators and the company because of the commercial interests, they volunteered to change the thing on their own.

Now, recently, fans have recompiled deleted scenes and released the definitive fan version of the film, and it's been shown in theaters on a f.

Can you even have a definitive fan addition?

Because fan implies like the entire audience, So all it takes is one person to say, I wouldn't have done it that way, And now it's not the definitive fan version anymore.

Right, So now there are multiple versions with slight tweaks in the experience.

Well, just let it go on.

I was gonna say, just say, there's forty thousand denominations of Christianity.

There's like forty thousand different cuts of different movies where everyone thinks, like, this is the version of Star Wars, that's the real one, Or this is the version of Phantom of the Opera that's the real one.

Right.

Was there some talk of like release the Snyder cut at some point and people have so Now the idea exists that because we have the technology right now to take a video file and alter it and then publish it in different versions, that we could experience things differently.

Now this applies to video games as well, where there are fan hacks and home brews of commercially released games.

Kind of like the Bible versions of the Nintendo games you were talking about.

Indeed, so you could present one version of a media to one child, and then the other child in your own family could see a different version of it, and then you'd destroy the evidence, and then later on they would talk about what they saw, and then they get into an argument over the details of the thing.

Well, I feel, I mean, that's a real scenario that could have happened from what you were describing, Like you get different edits or one person sees the theatrical or lease another person.

But now we've got the same version, where like with AI changing the media that we're consuming, that literally everybody will have seen a different version that just like just slightly catered it to their perspective.

So maybe you get the same script or maybe the general plot points or like, there will be some kind of consistency, but your version of when you go and see Titanic two and my version of when I see Titanic two, that there will be different enough that we won't be able to like really discuss the small details, but we might be able to discuss the general premise, and that that'll it'll be not the exception but the rule.

So I bring up the tone policing, like microaggressions, Like your tone right now is just a little bit loud, Bring it down, Speak to me gently, okay, thank you.

The tone of a movie can change based off of one little edit.

You know, who shoots first?

He just flip flipped the frames like this scene and this scene no A goes first or be goes first, or the firing of the gun, And I mean that's pulling the trigger.

Who's responsible for pulling a trigger and were they Were they the criminal in that situation because they cause harm or were they protecting someone's life.

That changes the intent of the thing.

So the author writes the story with a certain tone in mind.

The movie Hackers had a certain soundtrack and there are certain jokes in it that made certain characters a little bit more goofy.

Someone didn't like that and preferred it to be a more serious picture, so certain jokes were removed, certain soundtracks were change and now it's a much more mature picture for the film Hackers.

Now.

Side note, I love the movie in all of its forms.

Because I'm a fan of it, I'm gonna want to watch different versions of it, and little changes in it are a joy for me to see because I don't want to say the same movie twice, and I can appreciate the variations.

I honestly think that that is the new way that we're headed with media, just on its own tangent.

But let's say that your favorite movie is Phantom of the Opera or my movie I'll say my mine's Demolition Man.

Like at a certain point, there's one version of watching your favorite movie when you like, you know all the lines and you know what to expect.

That satisfies one part, but you'll never get that same feeling of like discovering a new scene or like something that takes you by surprise.

And that is what the new media seems to be promising, is that, hey, would you like it that every single time you watch Phantom of the Opera there's a new guest celebrity walk on that might be a minor role, it might be a major role.

And that every single time a new actor or actress comes out onto the scene, you know that now there's another version of Phantom of the Opera that you'll eventually be able to watch, whether you care or not.

But if you like that artist, now all of a sudden, now there's a reason like, oh my god, this new actor is out on the scene.

I can't wait to go back and watch my favorite movie again because now they'll be in it.

Well, this is like, you know, I, if I'm writing an autobiography on my life, I don't want to write it now and have the paint dry because I still have more life to live.

So if I'm writing a story and I just want to like cement certain events and then reframe them in a certain way, where I control the tone of the story in my authorized autobiography that might have unintended consequences down the line because of retro causation and the idea that the past is not in cement like physically, whatever happened in the past due to this conversation today could change the tone and tenor like literally change the tone and tenor events in the past because we're reframing them now with authorial intent and again authority to say, this is my life and I'm taking control of it so it will conform to my will.

Are you down to do a little bit bit of PCP with me?

PCP?

Yeah?

You know me?

Hey, conspiracy buff I double Dare you to take some PCP the paranormal conspiracy probe on your marks, Get set and.

Go from one to ten.

Where would you rate the validity, feasibility, reasonability of.

Cryogenics freezing the entire body or the brain.

And thawing it out somehow, either now or in the future, that this is something that we could practically do in theory, Like, how hopeful are you on to scale from one to ten that this is something that humans will do?

I'd give it a ten because my dad went through the process and it saved his life.

Okay, well let me let me let me restate cryogenics, This would be like freezing your entire body, drain everything, and then thawing you back out in I don't know, a month, or you know that reasonably right now the technology we have would imply you would die from being turned into an ice cube, and then we don't have a way to bring you back.

So or I guess I'm asking two things.

I'm asking can we go farther than that right now?

Or do you think we can ever go farther than that in the future.

Yeah, the process of cooling the body to be able to work on it in your own timeline, it does buy you more time in terms of putting someone in a chamber and freezing their body and then extracting wealth from the family infinitely until they unfreeze them seems to be the scam for me.

So I'm making the distinction to say that in practice, if someone has a cardiac event, to cool the body immediately, to put cool fluids in their body so you could do work on the heart.

That will save you time, just time to bring the person back to life.

That is that is real putting hand solo and freezing him and then shipping across the galaxy and then waking him up.

That is science fiction.

In terms of selling it, it's a It seems to be a scam because the business creates the business that grieving family members want their relative to come back, and they're the ones paying it.

It's so there's a financial interest there, so great point.

So where so give me a number though, from one to ten.

Uh ten for the medical procedure, negative ten for the hand solo expression of it.

How about the law of attraction?

If I wear certain pheromones, women are gonna like me more.

No law of attraction of like attracts like that if you go around putting positive energy into the universe, that it comes back to you.

You know the Secret movie that got really big in the early two thousands.

Not that expression of it, not the little coffee table book of like the Secret, but the hermetic principles behind it.

Clearly ten.

What's the difference between those two?

There is a more childlike wonder in saying this is my wish for this thing in my life that I need, versus the materialistic output of saying I need much more than what I currently have wanting all the health and all the wealth and all the attraction to all the material things.

How about the concept that crystals have magic powers?

The properties of crystals are metaphysical.

Certainly we saw that with the Pope.

He touched a big ice q Brock thing, and that was very metaphysical of him.

Is that a ten?

There are fakers, certainly, I'm seven and a half.

How about the case I'm making some of these ones up, but I just want to I wanted to see how receptive you are to any of these being true, that the black plague was deliberately engineered by an earlier form of population control, the.

Black plague being some form of illness that is isn't quite explained by science or religion, but causes people to become feel and it spreads like a pandemic, Yeah.

A bubonic plague, but like like, the general conception was that it was poor waste, poor refuse sort of collection, in addition to rats, in addition to poor food preparation, in addition to the fact that microbiology wasn't necessarily considered a thing, and no one washed their hands.

And I mean, I'm sure that you've you've heard all the different explanations of how something like the bubonic plague originally was created, but all of those imply it was purely nature at work.

And I've never really gotten deep in any rabbit holes that stated like maybe that was, you know, someone meddling, whether it was intentional or they just put the bat and the pangle in into the room and things just worked out on their own, but that there might have been human intervention where someone, you know, like they were an unintentional arsonist.

Almost when certain landowners build tenements and they stack them up and they want all of the undesirables into one small area, they already know that not everyone's going to have an equal opportunity outcome, so they're already setting them up for failure in a city planning situation.

So from that perspective, the people that make that decision and enforce that decision are understanding what the consequences are going to be of putting too many people into small of an area.

Okay, where's your number on that?

Then?

So black plague was engineered.

Engineered in terms of getting people together in a city area with poor hygiene and poor oxygen.

Yeah, in that explanation, that's a certain nine.

How about the mind Like trying to figure out a better way to ask this.

The minds were wrong about twenty twelve, So either they were wrong or we were wrong about them saying that the world was going to end in twenty twelve, or that we were wrong just about the year and the world still is going to end.

There's like a bunch of different variations of this, but just in the general premise, like, dude, should we even care about what any minds have to say about any end of the world situation?

Like what just rate mayan prophecies in general from one to ten?

I guess you know.

Again, the intelligent uh leaders of the tribe's understanding that given enough time, creative ideas will and lead to destruction.

Understanding that as they discover more and more plant substances, whatever it is, over time, there's going to be more ways to create more deaths.

So understanding that at some point history is going to converge towards the end of time.

They knew that their civilization could only exist before you know, boats show up and they have to fight a battle to preserve their own culture.

I think that's kind of what they were getting.

I need a number.

The mind calendar twelve months later.

Okay, not twenty twelve.

How about the concept of I'm going to just put a list of different buildings.

You can take your pick as to which one you gravitate towards.

But that the pyramids at Giza, or that old ancient cathedrals that have very detailed Gothic style cathedrals, that they're either capable of or fashioned after constructions that were literally harvesting energy and not just like people were in there singing and emotional energy was being channeled, but that like the construction itself and the placement of the buildings.

I think you know what I'm getting at without me having to overqualify, right.

Right, So the the size of the pyramid working as a factory creates a bigger chemical thing that they were working on.

We'll try to do it in a home land.

Or that a cathedral has certain angles and reverberations, and that it's it's also being used to channel, and that the spires on old churches are actually antennas that are used to like direct energy, essentially equating you know, masonry, not freemasonry, but just like masonry in general construction to like batteries and capacitors and things that that objectively harness real electricity and energy.

That word energy is doing a lot of I guess let's say electricity first, and we can walk backwards from electricity.

Does that is that fair?

Yeah, as far as it being like electricity free energy, this type of thing, sure.

Free energy that that someone can use for a practical mechanical means to like can run a mill, or turn a light on or whatever, some some very practical use that they can then capitalize on.

I do think that there was a practical use built into the infrastructure that would make people's lives easier.

You know, the workload would be reduced due to the function and the the shape and the building and the blueprints of the thing.

Okay, well, let's let's take the pyramids at Giza as an example of that.

That that if it had no if you suppose that there was no practical benefit to this, then it just seems like a monumental uh, waste is the wrong word, but like a waste of energy and effort in that it was superfluous, right, it was some It was something done just to be like, look at all the time and energy that we wasted because of how great we are and how much time and resources we have versus it actually improved the life for everyone.

It was like almost an altruistic project.

We just don't understand you.

Do you have any suggestions or thoughts like what that would be.

I've had the same thought about bitcoin and what work and problem is solving to say that.

I don't think it was doing random mathematical computations just for mining bitcoin.

I think the computational power of the thing describes the purpose of the thing, Like what it does is what it does.

It's not the after effect that we're obtaining.

So the form and function of the shape of a pyramid is very specific to what it's there for, which is taking chemicals and combining them in the necessary way to feed a growing population to create the fertilizer needed for the foods necessary to replenish.

Is correct because this is new to me at this angle, So that the Great Pyramid or one of the pyramids was potentially just like a pharmaceutical lab.

Essentially, Yeah, changing compounds.

Where where does are we talking al chemical?

Are we talking like like DuPont?

More like DuPont?

Like physically there's a and that's how they would support the growing population.

Interesting, where where does this like, what's the what's the bird's eye view of this operation that they build a pyramid and then input is X and output is chemicals and GMO and better seeds or what.

I'm referencing Land of chem book Jeffrey.

Okay, go on, you know, I leave it to him being the expert, and he explained it in such a way that it made sense.

Clearly, it's not used for a tomb.

There's it's not for dead bodies.

It's not a monument to the the pharonic governance of the great families there.

There was there was a practical use for the people there to increase the population we might which might lead to like the military use of saying we need to defend ourselves, meaning we need a larger population because we need boots on the ground to defend in vaders and that sort of thing.

So that was a practical purpose of it.

So they got the technology to figure out, well, to to maximize our food production, we need fertilizers because they recognize that you leach all the nutrients from the soil, you're not going to have the return.

So they quickly figured out how the lightning strike and the energy in the air could then be funneled and trans use.

Using that as a large science chemical factory seems to be the best explanation for why it was built.

Any ideas on the practical nature of the NAS lines.

As being viewed from above or.

Like, I mean, why are they there to begin?

Is the purpose of them to be viewed from above?

Or is there another possible practical scenario for them to even exist.

I do believe that there were airships of some form, So we did have people viewing things from high elevation.

I wouldn't say like airplane, but more like a helium balloon type of a thing, and they recognize that we can raise that up, heat it up in the expands, and we can use Hinden birds.

Type of a thing.

That's that's the later adaptation of it.

But there clearly were flying machines in some way.

I'm not saying UFO snuts and bolts from out of space.

I'm saying, man, figure out quickly that birds fly.

Let's try and figure out how we can get a bird's eye view.

So at that point, if they're if they're having that view from below marking the lines in there, it could have just been an art installation.

Man, do you think that Lee Harvey Oswald had any influence on JFK's death, even in like a metaphysical way.

He was at the place, he was at, the set for the for the presentation, whatever they're doing there.

Physically, he was there.

If he wasn't there, I don't think it would have happened the same way.

Would it have been someone else.

I don't think it could have been anyone else.

I think it had to be.

Him, him just being there or him actually taking a shot.

That's the mystery I'm not here to solve today.

Okay, at fair point, are we living in a simulation?

There are levels of simulation placed upon our reality that we deal with every day.

Sometimes it's just bureaucracy.

Okay, let me let me update that.

Are we living in a computer generated simulation?

And I and let me let me qualify.

I don't mean that we're still living in a simulation by a vague description, and that also computers are involved with it.

I mean, like the simulation that we perceive as reality, what's the chances that that was created by a computer before we were around?

And that's you know that this is the naaa, I believe in a greater power and you're like, well, I believe that we are all living in a computer simulation, so maybe that computer is the greater power.

Like, do you think that that's a chance of that happening?

But can God be a computer?

That's a greater mystery I'm still thinking about.

I haven't haven't landed on conclusion to that, So I don't really have a number today.

We've abandoned numbers, I think a while ago.

I don't know if you've been making intentions like three or four.

We're just right like thumbs up and thumbs down approved.

Yeah, we don't even need that.

Uh, you know the simulation idea again, one tool.

If all I have is a hammer, everything that sticks out become a nail and I hit it down.

If the tool set is simulation theory, I'm not going to trust the guy who's like, yeah, man, it's a simulation and that's all he ever tells me.

It's like there are other muthopoetic worldviews that describe it in different terms.

So I would approach it as more of a dream.

I wouldn't use the word artificial digital computer simulation.

I would say it functions as consciousness dream.

That's where I would lean more towards.

All Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna end it on on this one.

That's the most important to me, and I hope I can qualify it enough to get it out of vague answer area.

Right, So let's let's let's make a couple of assumptions and suspend disbelief just for the premise of answering these questions.

Let's say that there is a hell and that people can go to hell.

That I'm not going to tell you what the rules are or what the ratios are or anything, but let's just say objectively, there is a hell and people can go to hell.

And that's all that we know, And for all we know, no one's ever actually gone there, but it's a possibility or maybe a thousand or you know, people go every second.

Who knows if that If that's what's on the table, how many people do you think that you know, are going to hell.

An after life where people are punished for being bastards in this life, for being just absolutely represent reprehensive.

Maybe there's like a Swedish hell where it's truly like rehabilitation, but nonetheless it is a non purgatory step, right, it's not a limbo.

It's that you're going to go and do some hard time or get cooked a little bit and come back with some stories to tell.

I know there are people that have the opinion that this life is a simulation, it's a karmic cycle, and they are reincarnated to this earthly plane of existence because they were needing to learn a lesson.

Let's pretend that we're older than fifteen, though, when we've already been through all of those motions and cycles and thoughts, and that we've discovered that objectively, we are in a regular you know, like terrestrial realm, but there is an extraterrestrial realm of hell that is a possibility.

Are we also saying that there's the opposite of that, meaning there's a reward placed, like a heavenly place for people to celebrate their victories in life, so that there's the equal and opposite balance of saying, at the end of your life, there's a scale of judgment and your tip and that decides, you know, heaven or hell for that for life.

I get.

I mean, I don't know if if that is a requirement, but I guess you'd the way that you describe that, if you get forty nine percent versus fifty one percent, you're you're taking a left instead of a right at this like exit or whatever.

I guess let's just say yes, let's say that objectively, there is a a black and white up and down, a good and bad at the end of this and again, and let me just instead of having to fish around for it.

I guess part of the reason that I even asked this is like, is there something that somebody could do that is so egregious?

And again going back to the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the holies?

Who even knows what that actually is or if we can even do it right?

There's not even anything that says and here's how you do that, because I guess explaining how to do it might be the same as doing the thing.

Who knows?

But I'm really curious, like, is there a thing, Is there an actual thing you can do that would be considered an unforbi givable sin, or that there's something that you can do that unless you say you're sorry and you mean it and you look God right in the eye when you say that you're sorry, that you go to hell because you didn't follow the rules.

I have to say, yes, there has to be consequences for this life.

So I'm just going to agree and say, yeah, there has to be some sort of afterlife scenario where you are punished for your misdeeds in this life.

I think this world requires it to function because if it's all selfish people who at the end of their life don't have any sort of weighing of the scales of their heart, then this experiment has been a failure.

This simulation version has been a failure because of the selfishness and the psychopathy that is rewarded in this life.

Means the Mayans figured it out that it's going to end at some point.

It can't go on forever because of this aspect of evil, this anti Christ, this anti life scenario where a corporation led by one figurehead is going to decide that people need to be in tenements so that the black plague will sort them out to reduce the stress on the food systems.

That sort of belief that there is no higher purpose for living this life, and that it's not a mystery to be experienced or a puzzle to solve, but rather bio chemical signals in the brain that creates a hallucination of spiritual ascetic experiences does not work in terms of my experience of life.

Hey, you've got a great show called The Deliberating Dog Faced Dudes that every week.

I think, you guys get together and there's a rough interpretation of the format of like a debate over something being real not being real, for or against, and you're all very seasoned debaters.

I think even do you have academic debate experience or is it just something that you developed over time?

Developing over time, but recognizing the need for having a dialogue that ends with people disagreeing and still being friends is very important.

So directly, well, we're gonna have to talk about on a Tuesday night, Okay.

So so where can people go and listen to Deliberating dog Phase Dudes.

I'm assuming you've got a backlog that if someone's hearing about it for the first time right now, they can go and listen to all the older episodes.

I try to maintain all the relevant links at Elanmarcus dot com.

I do the best I can to keep those up to date.

If people need to find out where they are this Tuesday, that will be on the Benjamin Alderson Channel, it goes other places.

What we'd like to see you in the chat on a Tuesday night.

Again, Tuesday nights aren't everyone's cup of tea.

They have other things going on.

That's fine, So tune into some of the classic episodes where we've discussed different issues and look forward to future debates on more metaphysical topics where we kind of push back against.

You know, is Alistair Crowley the wickedest manner?

I think that's a great prompt to have.

Is astrological zodiacal horoscope things?

Is a net positive for society or just a sham show of snake oil.

I think that's going to need to be investigated on Tuesday Night.

I think we might have one.

I've got someone in mind for that one.

We've we've been going at it a little bit behind the scenes, so I don't know.

Maybe there'll be like an astrology true or false debate?

Where are you at?

Do you have a bias going into that one?

If the topic was astrology real or fake and you had to pick a debate side, what would be the easy year side to pick?

From?

A from not a from an academic standpoint, from a debate standpoint, Which side would do you think would be the easy side versus the hard side?

The hardest side would be the person who would want to debunk it and say that it has less than no value.

In fact, the harm that has been caused by allowing people to entertain the idea of divination through horoscopes and sun science has been so delusional to civilization.

I think that would be the harder side to defend.

Well that that's definitely an overly biased take on it.

What if it's literally just you're wasting your time versus you're not wasting your time.

I think its function is the quality of time, and that's really what it's discussing.

Okay, you're a hard one to pin down Mark.

I guess Allen or Alan, Marcus or whatever.

Your I can't even pin down your name.

That's that's how hard you make it for people.

I try to make it easy, so if people google it, they're not finding football players.

Okay, it's a fair point.

It's a fair point.

So the branding of it is such that I try to make it simple and also easily pronounced.

It's not a difficult to pronounce name.

I don't think unless the double l's are like alien, Yeah, like the alien language.

Try to pronounce things.

There are certain words that I have received that I'm now just putting the pieces together, And it's sort of like does the definition come first and then the word or the word then the definition I've had.

It happen both ways received from where received, like in your brain, written on a piece of paper, through the email channeled, received leaving it as a cliffhanger.

Intentionally received or unprompted, unsolicited.

Being open to the idea, and I received.

Okay, I mean part three uh with Mark is Alan at Alanmarcus dot com.

We're going to talk about the voices in his head.

It sounds like.

In a fun way, there's a good use of this sort of inward imagination, like an act of imagination, and I'm very encouraging of that.

I think that in like problem solving, you know, they say if you force yourself to sit down and just write down all the possible ways you could solve the problem, you're generally going to figure it out on your own instead of avoiding the problems and not thinking about them.

So work through difficult things has sort of been my theme and modus operandi sort of my whole reasoning irrationale for existing in media and if people would criticize and say, well, you talk too much about himself, Well, I like to hear other people share their life stories.

And this democratization of podcasts and media and fan revisions, I think it's great.

I love the freedom and expression and in this way being able to have a conversation that people can overhear and now they're getting references that they're not familiar with.

That leads them on sort of these scavenger hunts to do a little bit of work and discover that there's some really interesting pieces of art and things.

And I want to thank you for your interview with Nina Paley specifically.

I think that was really really interesting and I went on to see what all she's done.

That's really great.

Now other people are going to listen to Paranige American and here are other guests that they're going to prefer and they're going to follow and have resonations with.

But specifically Nina Paley, Wow, that was That was an awesome interview.

And the idea of like copyright in the mind, like I recognize that the sovereignty of the mind thing was something that I recognize as being important before I had a framework or a language to describe, like, my mind is my own, my thoughts are my own, and I can do whatever I want in my head and that's okay.

And not to be fearful and to explore darker things is to say that I'm not suppressing them.

If we have a problem with a cultural shadow where there's things we don't want to talk about, and then we try to suppress them, well they sprout out in other ways that are maybe less predictable.

The other we don't.

Even when Nina Paley on, my whole goal was to eventually get into AI too, because she's an art like, like legitimately talented artist that's been animating and doing comics for your entire life.

But she also is pro AI, at least in terms of concept, and I didn't get to pull her more on that.

But it's just another interesting perspective that it's very hard to find someone that has those kind of views, and like the staunch anti copyright view and even that the idea that copyrights have been sold to us as empowerment, but really they've always been a tool of the publishers to justify why they should be able to get a copyright, and then it's like, oh, but anyone can have one and see it's empowering.

Yeah, it completely flips the entire concept because copyright as you're introduced to it in the American legal systems, like this is what makes our country great.

This is one of the great things that you know, creates these rags to riches stories and pull your self up by your bootstraps and copyrights.

It's all sold as a big package, but it's not American.

It's a European euro trash authoritarianism that's basically come from the same era as like the black leg and the Bubontic leg.

Right, and that idea of like intellectual property is something that could be trademarked and registered and file away somewhere.

And I was having the idea of like this idea of like spiritual property that belongs to me, Like we all have our own spiritual property similar to intellectual property, where significant life events that have you know, a spiritual, metaphysical, paranormal sort of expression in our lives that's sort of like stamp like this is why we're in a weird universe.

I think those are the experiences that people have.

So if we're talking about like dosing a town with LSD for the greater good or for the control of it, have we had that conversation, like AI is that sort of thing?

Yeah, So AI being the tool that we were approaching might seem to be the end of history in some way, but it seems to be the greater reflection of our own creative storytelling mythopoetic sort of Carl Jung's archetypal sort of thing, where we're now entering the age where imagine something.

If you can have the words to type into a prompt, it can spit something out, which is a lot closer than you could do on your own struggling to get to a quick result.

So it's not going to get you to where you want to be, like one hundred, but it's a tool in the journey that we can use creatively for the betterment of the people that we love and trust and I want to be with.

I think it scares people too, because it's one reason to not be stuck with the empty canvas syndrome or blank canvas syndrome where you want to do something or create something or start a new project that you're unfamiliar with.

There's always been this barrier of well, I don't have anyone I can ask, or I don't know how to do that thing, and I don't know where to start and AI.

It does kind of be like, uhhh, like you're not allowed to say that anymore.

Like now you can just go ask AI and at least get with The first steps to the thing are if you couldn't have already done that, like searching online.

And there's there's another really unique thing that we're living through in a very egotistical, narcissistic wayomost, but it's kind of fun that you get to be the ones that live through this period in time that in the year two thousand or any time prior than that, if you mentioned AI in your book, in your movie, in your music or anything you were writing sci fi, you were a nerd that you probably like Star Wars, Ort Star Trek and anything else.

But now movies that come out for the rest of our lives, until we're all dead or until the world ends, they can all contain AI and still be a sports jock movie and still be a non sci fi, non nerd movie.

And that's it's such a weird thing.

Right that it used to be a hallmark of oh, I'm watching a sci fi movie because they just talked about AI.

But now it's a real thing that we're all living with and it's doing the things that used to be considered sci fi, and now it's commonplace, or at least it's become like over the next ten years, we'll see people being born that were like, yeah, AI has always been around, Like, what do you mean, it's ubiquitous, we're fishing water.

It's a demolition Man we're living in and it's like the genre of burger punk where the McDonald's corporation because president of the United States of America.

I mean, that was the story of Demolition Man, where it's like one of these fast food companies essentially becomes the president of the United States of America essentially, And I kind of think that's where we're already at.

So science fiction of the past and now it's like all the movies I watched as a youth that were in the future.

I think all of them at like the Fortress movie, you know, a Highlander guy goes into a secure prison facility the future was twenty seventeen.

Well, that's like the far past.

Now, like the trip, they were all very optimistic, even the ones that were about the world ending, they still thought the world was going to end and we'd have cool technology, like ubiquitous technology.

None of them seem to have gotten it right, or the timelines are just so way off.

This globalism experiment, I think has kind of reached its climax in a way where returning to smaller local communities and tribes is sort of the natural reaction to that and coming to terms with the fact that English as a language may have already peaked and the Chinese language might be.

We're all the creativity and they may be making science fiction for their culture that we import.

So for such a time at you know, the nineteen eighties and nineties, when a Disney corporation America, that worldview was exported to all the other countries and they just had to put up with our entertainment for a while.

The technologies caught up where they can make their own stories, and now we're watching them their stories, their idea of what the future of Earth is going to look like outside of a Euro American centric sort of worldview.

So I think that's just coming to balance.

This is a fun rabbit hole tangent to go down to, especially when you talk about the English language being surpassed by say like Chinese language are fill in the blank with whatever you want, because if you were to use technology as one of those metrics, it was until very very recently, but pretty much all programming languages were predominantly in English.

They like, even if you were a Chinese developer and any developer, you're still writing the word if and the word then and end and start and begin like it was all English.

And then now with AI come in in, we're starting to realize that even AI doesn't necessarily care about the language, that you can train the same or similar results from like image prompting or video prompting or any of these AI You can train it to recognize English input and then here's the thing we wanted, or Chinese input, and here's the thing we wanted, and they both kind of work in parody.

Although there's there might be an actual decimal point measurement somewhere where it's like, actually AI prefers Chinese.

Actually AI is more specific and precise when you use English.

We're not there yet to know which language is better, but it does seem that AI could be a tool that tells us objectively what language is better than other languages for different use cases.

Like we might find out that when we're talking about car safety, maybe Taiwanese is the best language to capture all of the different elements in car safety.

If we're talking about music, it's probably not German, right, Like, there's certain languages that might cater more to certain different things.

And it's like, okay, now if we're going to talk about young like now we actually have to talk in German.

Having the understanding of psychology specific to like that Austria area and that sort of area.

I think they were just working with you.

Indeed.

Yeah, the symbolic representation of language and how the large language model's interpret sentence structure is quite an interesting thing to do.

If you've ever taken like an English translation and then saying LM, translate this to Russian, and then take the Russian, translate it to Japanese, and then go through five language hops and then return it to a literal English translation and do you get English?

It seems that the AI systems are figuring that out out, and in this way our approaching this sort of one world, unified language even if I'm speaking English, you're speaking Chinese, They're still underlying it one symbolic mathematical language, and in that sense, the world is running on that simulation layer.

Yeah, AI is basically making its version of Esperanto right now.

The divorak keyboard arrangement.

Yeah, well, let me let me uh, let me cut this off because we've got a million different tangents we could go down, and we've already established.

Part three is going to be about the messages that you've received, so.

And you know, we don't want the paint to dry.

This is like like an oil painting, and you know next time we're going to go back and smudge it up and alter it again.

So this is like our living documents.

Okay, I appreciate you letting me use this show as a vehicle to kind of document these these different experiences you've had that I'm incredibly fascinated with, and I'm sure that you've been going over them in your mind.

So we have like a record documentation of at least what you think of them at the time of us recording these.

So here hopefully one hundred years in the future, someone will be like, we figured out what that phenomenon was if only someone had about seven or eight hours of audio recording to explain different occurrences of this.

We've got one of them, two of them, this one in part one well and part three coming up, and.

The crowdsourcing of the comments.

Please leave lots of comments and engage with this material.

It's an ongoing conversation, recognizing that you and I have a microphone in a face and a setup where we want to talk.

There are also people that want to preserve their privacy but have brilliant ideas, so we can find ways to receive messages from them as well.

And it's like I have an email on my website for those who feel compelled to respond to the words I'm saying, there is an email to reach me.

I would appreciate that.

If people don't want to leave public comments private emails, I'm sure you get some interesting emails to at some time.

As soon as you send out a call to receive them, they flood in over time.

And I appreciate every single one of them.

And even if I don't respond to all of them, I do appreciate it.

Leave the comment, hit the little thumbs up button, feed the simulation so at least it knows to divert more energy to this side of the algorithm.

So appreciate you.

Yeah, make that AI even more weird because the alternative to that is a cemented worldview where it is so rigid there's no flexibility and room for creative people to live.

We're living in a time where the fear of AI taking all of our jobs.

That's been a warning for a long time.

Understanding what provides real world value to people.

You know, food on the table, we know what those things are, certainly like gardening and back to the land and all of these types of things.

Not everyone wants to do that.

So living in community is very very important.

Understanding online community is real and we meet each other.

That's a real thing.

So meet people where they're at and trust them when they say things, and when I say, email me, email me.

I want to hear your stories.

I'm sure there's people that have been holding on to similar no apples and oranges comparisons, but weird things that they're like, I don't know, and they're like, you know, sometimes just sharing it with someone is enough, just to let it out and then get on with it and the pain doesn't have to dry.

These are some of my favorite stories, are the ones where people themselves, as they went through it, didn't want to tell anyone about it because they didn't want to rock the boat.

They didn't want to question their sanity or have everyone else question their sanity.

And it's more like, I'll put that in a drawer and deal with it when I've got the bandwidth the exact way that you kind of described it.

I've got many different friends that have got those kind of experiences with bigfoot, with aliens, with whatever.

Just all sorts of spread the entire gamut.

And to me, maybe it's just a low bar for myself.

But when someone's like doesn't want to talk about it, and then like a decade later, they do want to talk about it.

And there's other people that are also like, yeah, man, same thing where I saw this thing and I've never been able to shake this idea and it's all that I've been thinking about and now I'm ready to talk about it.

I tend to give those ones more credit than someone's like I saw this yesterday, and listen to what I said.

Even if maybe that body is shouldn't be there, it's definitely there.

Are you talking about all the AI written posts on Reddit asking am I the asshole?

With a clearly manufactured story for those up boats.

It's like the social media verification of like, I just want to massage this story to move people.

The conversation we're having is not something between two artificial intelligences.

To have a video call face expression, you know, the hesitation and the all of that stuff cannot be mimicked.

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Oh life, h.

I screwbled my life away?

Driving the right to pay, will in light to bray give you the flight.

Were playing paper that has the blaze?

What an amazing feel When it's real, the real you will engage in your favorite the pause the lord of an arrangement and gaging the proper results to hit the pavement.

If they give emotional hate may be your language the game.

How they playing it well without lake because evaded and whatever the costs they are the shamship thinks Giny cappeltated that it is the apex executional flame.

You walked oocular bombs distributedy war rather gruesome.

For eyes to see.

Maxim out and I light my trees, blowing off in the face.

You're despising me for what thought calculated that?

Rather cut throat he Lord American.

Must be all the blunt smoke.

For real, Lord, give me your day, your way, bay cake.

They wait around that hate.

Whatever they say, man, it's not in the least bit we get.

Have you rotate when the beat hit some things because you well for uncle niggas for real, you welcome.

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You're welcome, yet they going it's still You're welcome.