I think that belonging is the foundation to so much of the human experience.

But belonging with an empire is always conditional.

You belong so long as you you know X, Y and Z, or you belong if X, Y and Z, and I think that that's what we see in the church, right?

You Belong if you do these things or say this prayer or believe this exact you know theology, but what would it look like to belong to a community or belong to a people that you belonged with no ifs or buts or conditions you

Josh, hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make.

We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus.

I'm your host.

Joshua Johnson, belonging shouldn't come with conditions yet so often in a world shaped by Empire, it does.

Cat armas returns to shifting culture to share from her new book, liturgies for resisting empire, a powerful invitation to rediscover community, belonging and peace in a dehumanizing world.

Together, we talk about how Empire has seeped into our language, our theology, our sense of time and productivity, and how we could begin the lifelong work of untangling it from our hearts and minds.

Kat points us toward embodied resistance, putting our hands in the soil, resting when we're weary, listening to wisdom from the margins, and belonging without ifs or buts.

We explore how Jesus subverts the violence of empire, not with power or domination, but through peace, love and shared humanity.

This conversation is a liturgy of reimagining, a reminder that another way of living and another way of belonging is possible.

So join us.

Here is my conversation with cat.

Armas, cat, welcome back to shifting culture.

Excited to have you back

on.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, I'm really excited to get into resisting empire.

Your new book, liturgies for resisting empire.

I think is fantastic.

I love the subtitle, because we're seeking community, belonging and peace in a dehumanizing world.

I think dehumanization is is a big problem.

I think we've forgotten how to be human.

So how does Empire dehumanize us?

Like, what is empire?

Let's start with that.

Like, what is empire?

Because that's a big old topic, and it's a big thing, and we all have different ideas of what that is.

So what do you say?

What do you mean when you say empire?

Yeah, well, that is the question, right?

What is empire?

I think that was actually the reason why I wanted to write this book.

I write about this in the book.

But I was sitting, you know, I've been studying post colonial theology and theory for several years, and I was sitting with some seminary friends, and I'm sort of talking about Empire, and I'm saying, Man, you know, these conversations we're having in the academy, and I think that we need to be having them outside of the academy, because there's just so many conversations happening, right?

And so my friend sat there with me, and they, you know, their eyes sort of lit up, and they were like, Oh my goodness.

You know, we were just sitting with our church friends and, you know, in small group or whatever.

And we started talking about this very topic, and we were like googling Webster's Dictionary, like, what is empire?

You know, because it really is such a big, convoluted term idea, just thing in general.

So I will say, to answer that question, there is so many ways you can answer that question.

There are so many different sorts of definitions, and so many experts and historians and, you know, all sorts of things, political theorists, and they'll give you all different kinds of answers.

So I think for me, I wanted to focus on more, you know, modern right, like, how has Empire affected us in our in America, more modern day, and specifically the church, right?

I think that's why, because this is obviously a book, a theological book, a book about, you know, book with liturgies.

I wanted that to be the, the, sort of, the main focus.

So I will say, in general, Empire is really just a relationship between a dominant ruling state and then a less dominant one, right?

So it's a relationship between a dominant power and, you know, a more, I guess you can say oppressed or less dominant power.

Originally it meant sort of a state or a political system governed by an emperor.

And then in the time of Rome, that sort of moved to, to include the idea of expansion, and so the idea of, you know, sort of holding power in across distant lands and distant people.

And so that's where you literally see, right, like empires going in and taking control of other lands, not their own, and other people's right?

And this, of course, with it comes so many things.

I mean, you're talking about culture and language.

And just so many other things that come alongside of it.

Now, Empire in the modern sense, I mean, we still sort of have that, you know, old school and by and I did air quotes here, old school idea of empire, as in, like, physically, you know, marching into other lands and seizing them.

But now we see more of this idea of imperialism, which is what I like to understand as the energy behind expansion, right?

The the sort of the spirit behind conquest, so like the, like the US and Latin America, right?

Or the the idea that, you know, McDonald's and Amazon and Disney have so much power, cultural power, over other, you know, quote, unquote, distant parts of the world.

And I just mean distant, as in, in in relation to, you know, the Western US.

So, yeah, I think so that essentially is what Empire is.

And when I talk about empire, I'm looking at that more of this, this idea, this energy of control and dominance over other people's, other people's culture and other people's just way of being, a way of thinking, way of just being in the world, right?

And so I focus on, you know, Christianity.

And obviously, there's no official Christian empire, but the way that Christianity functions in the world is much like an empire, right?

It is a relationship of dominance and control, and, you know, and we might talk about this more later, but just the idea of, you know, the way missions, you know, work happens across the world.

I mean, it's not just, you're not just sharing Jesus, you're sharing your version of Jesus, your version of Christianity, your version of morals and values.

And you know, so it's way more than than what Christianity sort of presents itself.

It really is a relationship of dominance.

And with that comes hierarchy, comes coercion, you know, so many of these things that really we're just trying to undo.

And really what I argue the early church was trying to undo as well.

So, yeah, it's a convoluted question, and maybe also a convoluted answer.

So those big forces, as they come and they actually go around the world now, imperialism is happening around the world.

It seems like there's a monoculture that is happening.

It seems to be like this force is merging all the cultures together to create one monolithic culture, right?

That we're losing some of ourselves, right?

How do we start to like untangle what we've lost and what we are losing when Empire controls and we forget what being human in a community looks like, Yeah,

well, I mean, I feel like that is, again, you know, sort of the question, how do we untangle it?

And, I mean, that's what I'm attempting to do, you know, I think there's so many ways to untangle and I think that that is, you know, I think essentially what you're asking also is like, how do we decolonize, right?

Like, if, if Empire is essentially this colonial this colonizing force, then how do we decolonize?

How do we untangle the, you know, the tentacles of empire from our, you know, hearts and minds and bodies.

And I think that that is a journey that we are going to be on for the rest of our lives.

I think, you know, that's sort of what I argue in this book.

In this book, is that the ideology, plural of empire, are so intertwined into how we think and how we just understand ourselves as human beings, how we understand God, how we relate to one another, how we belong.

They're so intertwined into our daily lives that I think untangling them is going to take a consistent, intentional, lifelong Effort, Right?

And that's not something that should discourage us.

Or I think it can be creative, right?

There's so much creativity, so many ways to, you know what we say, quote, unquote, resist.

And there's so many ways to, yeah, to stand against these ideologies.

And it depends on, you know, who we are, what our passions are, where we you know, where we fit and function in this world.

And I think that there are different ways that we can entangle, right?

I think for all of us, it would do us well to get to know the earth, right?

That's one way that I feel like we can begin to disentangle, like, literally, physically stick our hands in the dirt, you know, get to know the the earth from which gives us life and breath and food.

And I think understanding the ways that we spend our money, I mean, yeah, there are so many ways, right, how we understand our relationship to productivity and to time, you know, how, what's our relationship, or even how we think about duality and pair?

I mean, there's really so many ways we can entangle, and I hope that in this book, we can kind of see, just in the different ways I talk about, you know, how our relationship.

To our body can change, and how our relationship with that, you know, I kind of put the body and time together, which might seem like two different things, but really they're not.

I think how we view our how we view time and how we view our bodies, I think, are inextricably connected because of things like capitalism and but, yeah, I think that untangling is a lifelong intentional effort that requires us to really pay attention and learn.

I think, you know, that's another reason why I wrote this book.

I think it's important that we we kind of know how we got here, right?

Like, where, what are we talking about?

We say, Empire.

How did we get here, you know, what are, what are the ideologies of empire that have seeped into our into our bones, really?

And, yeah, how can we sort of start to point those out in our own personal lives and then begin to entangle them?

You know, I think of some of these ideologies include, like hierarchy, for example, how do we engage in hierarchical relationships in our family, in our you know, in how we engage at work, at church, you know, whatever it is, how does hierarchy seep into our thinking and our way of being?

You know, as a mom, I think about that all the time.

You know, of course, it's my job to lead and guide my children.

But is it really a relationship where I see my children as equal and I am guiding them as equals?

And yes, of course, I might know more and have lived longer.

And yes, my brain is more rational and all the things right.

But I think there is, you know, a dimension of how hierarchy has, you know, bred so much of toxic thinking and upbringings, and, you know, I mean, so much of the ways that we have harmed our children by seeing them as really nothing on the, you know, The ladder of hierarchy or productivity, right?

How do we push our bodies and ourselves and what does our work ethic look like?

What do we expect from our family members, our children?

What do we expect from the people we work with or for?

What do we demand of them, you know?

So I think, yeah, there are so many ways we can untangle and I think it begins with knowing how we got here, what are the ideologies of empire that have seeped into our bodies and our bones, and what is, how does it affect us personally?

And how can we begin to say, oof, yeah, I have a really, really messed up relationship to time or to productivity or to the way that I see reality is very dualistic, or I don't have a very diverse pool of what I'm learning from, or who I'm learning from, or the people that surround me.

Or I do see the world in very much dominance, in sort of submission, type of way, or violence is a big one.

I know empire, you know, one of the main things of Empire is violence.

And how does violence, how has it, infiltrated our theology, even our language?

I talk about this in the book, but the way that we talk, the way that we, you know, worship, is so steeped in militaristic language.

So I think it's all of these things put together, you know, can help us to untangle.

Sorry, that was a really long response.

But there's so many ways I

want to actually, then bring it back into Jesus and her faith and Christianity and what that looks like.

Give me just like a brief, like foundational what did Jesus bring to this world?

What is like a foundational faith, and where has, like, the language of empire veered us off path from what Jesus brought to us.

Okay, great, yeah, I'll start with the last question, our language, right?

So I'll start with, kind of where we're at and where we've been, and then sort of where Jesus, what I've seen in the life of Jesus and what we I know we talk about a lot in, you know, and just in general conversation and culture, but yeah, I mean, we are steeped in, you know, militaristic and violent ideologies and language.

I mean, I wrote about this.

I wrote about a chapter in my book, but also on sub stack and various places on the internet.

But I remember being a kid, and, you know, one of our main things was, you know, we're in the Lord's army, and I, you know, I'm here this like, you know, young in Sunday school, you know, I was raised Catholic, so even in catechism, you know, class, and I'm here marching and pretending I have a sword and, and that's, you know, it's funny, but it's also like, that's how we really understand our relationship to God and, and as a, you know, response, our relationship to others in the world as being in this cosmic battle, this cosmic war, because we're so used to that you might hear that and think, Well, yeah, there's good and evil.

Fine.

You know, I'm not saying that good and evil don't exist whatever, but what I'm saying is that we're conditioned from early on to think that we constantly have to be fighting and constantly have to be suppressing and dominating and controlling and coercing, right in order.

To belong to this sort of, you know, eternal divine kingdom.

And the reason for that is, and because that's in the Bible, right?

I mean, you have Ephesians six, and it's in the Bible.

But what I'm sort of arguing in my book, and you know, is that the reason why so much of the language in Scripture is militaristic, is because the Bible was written within empire to a people that were trying to contend with what it meant to live within the empire, right?

And so they had, that's the only language that they had.

Right is we live in this extremely violent, oppressive and suppressive empire.

And that's what our language, that's the, you know, that's the framework with that we that they had, right?

They couldn't envision anything different because it didn't exist, you know.

And so they, you know, when the Bible was written, it was written with this language in mind.

And then, of course, it's just been read, you know, quote, unquote, literally.

And so we've continued that language in this, you know, sort of frame of thinking for, you know, 1000s of years.

When I argue that, when you look at the life of Jesus, while Jesus and the, you know, authors in Scripture, and many of the writers in Scripture, also, you know, they do use that militaristic language.

So much of it is, well, both, and so much of it is both a subversion to the Empire.

And also I, you know, I argue sort of like a capitulating to the Empire, because, again, there was no other imagination, right?

And so, you know, talking about dualism and paradox, I don't think the Bible is a straight anti Imperial manifesto.

I also don't think the Bible is a pro empire, you know, book either.

I think what it is is, as I mentioned, it's people contending.

How do I do this thing?

Just how we are people contending.

How do I do this thing?

Right?

How do I you asked me, How do we untangle that is the question.

And I think that is the question that the New Testament writers were asking, right?

How do we wrestle with this thing?

How do we belong to an eternal Kingdom when we're living in this violent, suppressive and oppressive kingdom, how is it supposed to look different?

And I think we can see in various places how it's supposed to look different, right?

I mean, you have Jesus literally turning his cheek when he you know, and when he gets hit by a, you know, when they come at him, he turns the other way and, and there's so many, so much of what he's saying is, you know, this is not how we are supposed to be.

We are not supposed to define ourselves by the way that empire defines us, but by how God and God's Kingdom does.

And this is that there is no hierarchy, there is no Jew, there is no Greek, there is no you know, there is diversity in this kingdom, right?

It is not a mono kingdom, as, you know, as you mentioned, a mono culture, you know, we are to be in community and resting and living as the seasons guide us, right?

Look at the flowers.

They don't worry or stress.

I don't think that that's like a, you know, I don't stress.

I think it's, watch how the seasons and the earth provides, right?

There are so many ways that Jesus is pointing us to, hey, live this way.

And I think the authors are also contending with that, right?

They're saying, Ooh.

But also, you know, this is violent here.

And, you know, so I think it's just a conversation that we're having.

They were having too.

I want to go into Ephesians six, if you want.

Can we go into Ephesians six the full armor of God.

So when this this language of armor, it's a militaristic language.

Paul's saying we don't struggle against flesh and blood.

So he's saying it's not actually a physical, violent type of passage, but we we take it to be physically violent.

So can you just help somebody dealing with this passage?

Because we use it all the time.

We're having kids put on their armor, you know, they got all this stuff.

How do we actually, then talk about this in a way that it dispels some empire and militaristic language, but it actually shows us what Paul was getting at and what we're supposed to do.

Yeah.

No, that's a great question, and I think Yeah.

So you know the full armor of God that Paul is talking about in Ephesians six, obviously, is speaking to Roman like, what the armor that the Roman military wore?

Right?

They wore breastplates and swords and, you know, all the things, right?

Which is funny, because, yeah, we talk about that now, but also this is not even our armor, like we don't even wear that armor.

So it's, you know, but anyway, yeah, so that's what the Roman military wore.

And so Paul.

Is, you know, saying, Yeah, put on that armor.

And he's talking about the breastplate, and he's talking about the helmet and all the things, hold on, let me I'm pulling up here, the breast, the belt and the breastplate.

But notice that when he brings up this armor, he turns the imagery right, so you have, I mean, you think about a sword and a helmet.

I mean, this is all like, very defensive, very like, you know, ready to fight, sort of imagery.

But then he says, Stand firm with the belt of what truth right, like that.

Truth is not this defensive armor, like no and then he says, and the breastplate of what of righteousness or justice, right, with your feet, with the gospel of peace, right?

So he's like taking this language, you know, and so much, so much of, I think, this ideology and these narratives are instilled in us through language.

Language is so important, and language was, I mean, when it when it comes to Empire, when it comes to colonization, I mean, language was the thing that the colonizers sort of used to colonize, right?

English is sort of the became, like the main language, and everything was, was sort of, you know, set against this backdrop of the English language.

So, anyways, side note on language, but, but, yeah.

Then he says, you know, your feet with peace.

And then the shield, right now, it's a shield of what a faith and and this is how we can extinguish, extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one, with peace, with, you know, truth, with justice, with all of these things that are so anti the Empire.

I mean, the Empire was not about truth.

The Empire was not about justice or righteousness.

The Empire was not about peace.

It was the opposite right.

You know, peace, peace.

They say, when there is no peace, it's all about violence and warfare.

And so I think that here you have, like, this very, very obvious and direct subversion of empire.

You know, it's like saying, all right, you know, let's take your guns and your, you know, whatever, and instead, like they say, right?

Like plowshares, or instead, we're going to turn them into flowers.

I don't know, you know what I mean, so it's like this very direct subversion.

But because we've so been trained and we've so, you know, military language, militaristic language and violent language is so normal and common and comfortable for us that we read that and we're like, oh, yeah, cool piece.

But also, put on that armor, because we're going to war, you know, we kind of ignore the rest, where you're like, Yeah, peace, righteousness, truth, whatever.

But no, but you're in battle, guys.

So, you know what I mean?

So, yeah, I think that that's, you know, I think it is a direct subversion to Empire.

Now, that's not to say that everything Paul says is a direct subversion to Empire.

I think, you know, Paul was a man that lived in the empire.

I mean, there was a lot of things that Paul said, or, you know, Ephesians, I'm not gonna say Paul here, but there was a lot of things that the authors of Scripture said that were, you know, yeah, they were steeped in militaristic language.

And I think that's why it's our job as faithful.

And, you know, learned, you know, contemporary scholars of the Bible to understand this history in this context, be able to say, oh, okay, well, that makes sense, not not to outright say, I'm not going to use this passage, but to just understand the language, or to understand why certain things were said and why others weren't, and how they differ from, you know, our current context.

Yeah, one of your chapters, you talk about ideology, so rejecting ideology and then embracing wisdom.

Ideology itself is something that is.

It's kind of difficult, I think, for people to grasp a hold of what it what it is, what it looks like.

Hannah Arendt, I'll just tell you one of her quotes about ideology.

She says an ideology differs from a single political opinion in that it claims to possess either the key to history or the solution for all the riddles of the universe, or the intimate knowledge of the hidden universal laws which are supposed to rule nature and man.

And so I think that these these ideologies that empire has thrown at us, that we say, Okay, this set of ideas really unlocks everything.

I'm going to hold to that.

And if you don't hold to that, you're wrong.

We're basically saying that ideology Trumps humans, and we're going to actually kill or be killed over these core ideas that we believe, because we think that this is actually the key to the universe, yeah, how do we know that we're holding on to an ideology rather than the wisdom of God?

Yeah, that's a great question, and I think it's harder now more than ever.

I think because of just the world we live.

Live in and the way that these ideologies are so passed on.

And, you know, it's funny, I had a relationship with someone really close to this person, and you know, her and I, we adored each other.

And then throughout the whole, you know, election season, we I watched this person go from not necessarily a Kamala Harris supporter, you know.

I know a lot of people didn't like her, even people on the left fine to all out Trump.

I mean, all out, bought out for Trump signs and you know.

And this is a person you know, person of color, like someone you know.

And I say that, I only say that to say that we live in a very unique time in history.

Barbara F Walter, she's the author of How Civil War start, incredible book, if you haven't read it yet.

It's alarming and, you know, sobering.

And she talks about how we live in a unique time in history where, you know, and I hate to be on social media, but really, I mean, so much of these, you know, narratives, and that's something I want to say about ideology, that they are narratives.

But so much of these narratives are, you know, they're in front of us, and they're so quickly digestible without nuance, without context, and it's so easy to become radicalized over and so easy to, you know, believe ideologies just from a from a flip of your thumb, right?

And so anyways, I bring up my, my, my, this person that I loved, because I remember, you know, they would send me these videos, these, you know, tiktoks and instagram videos.

And, you know, watch this and, oh my goodness, you know.

And I would say, I don't consume my news that way, like I just kept saying, I'm not gonna watch this video, because I don't consume my news that way.

Send me an article, send me an article that is fact checked, and, you know, I that's what I want to read.

And they said, Well, I'm a busy, you know, I'm a busy parent.

I don't have time to read those articles.

And so this is how, you know, and I thought, wow, you know, no judgment to that person in the sense that, like, I'm a busy mom, too.

Yeah, I get that, you know, I totally get that.

But I think that, yeah, we've, we've come to a place in our society where, you know, we just need, we just need it quick.

And so ideology now just becomes easier than ever to believe as sort of the, yeah, the key, the solution, whatever.

Now I, you know, that's just sort of a side note, but I say that to say that ideologies sort of sustain themselves through narratives, right?

I believe that the ideologies become what they are through the telling of stories.

And so we sort of believe these narratives, that we believe them throughout history, and it's these stories that because that's how we understand ourselves, that's how we understand the world, is through story, right?

And so, when we believe these really, whether it's stories that draw fear, whether it's stories, and a lot of them are, you know, ideologies do happen through fear driven narratives, right?

And so, and I saw this in, you know, this person that I had a relationship with.

I saw this, it's this narrative.

And I'm seeing this sort of narrative form in in their mind and in their lives.

And I'm watching how everything that they're scrolling through is sort of, you know, responding to and affirming this narrative.

And so I think when it comes to ideology, the dominant powers they have, the power to sort of shape, create or silence narratives.

And that's the history of colonization.

Right to be colonized is to have your story sort of stripped from you, to have the ability to tell your story, or your story to be taken from you.

I mean, you look at just the the way that, that you know, throughout history, colonizers have been able to justify colonization is through the telling of stories, right?

I mean, like I write about in my book, you have Alexander the Great carried the Iliad in his hand.

I mean, these are just like, yes, these are stories of triumphant I mean, that's the role the Bible has played for many, you know, in in the role of Christianity, it's just been this story of a triumphant warrior God, you know, suppressing the evil enemy.

And that can look like so many different things.

And so I think ideology is steeped in narrative, right?

And when the narrative gets distorted, you know, I think that that's how we can just kind of go with that go, go with that story, and we see it.

I mean, you know, the way that certain even now.

I mean, certain stories are being suppressed, and history is being changed.

And, you know, oh, you know, well, the history of this, you know, wasn't that bad.

Or, you know, I know that in Florida that the curriculum was changed to say that slaves benefited from slavery, right?

Those who were enslaved benefited from slavery.

Just, just, it could be the most, you know, simple what?

Seemingly simple and seemingly smallest changes to the narrative.

But I think that that is how ideology sort of sustains itself and thrives.

We have a narrative that we are, that we need to be afraid, or that we are losing, or whatever it is, yeah, then the solution becomes, you know, this is what we need to do, and we will die for this thing, because this is the only thing that will save us.

This is the only person that will save us.

And that is another huge thing about empire, is the idea that empire is the Savior, right, even though Empire causes right, the sort of the need for salvation, it then presents itself as the Savior.

I mean, you look at Rome, and it's funny, you know, I talk about, if you've ever been to Rome, you can see this.

I mean, Rome was all about the narrative.

It told of itself, right?

And so you go to Rome, and you see all the porticos and all the statues and and they all have engraved, you know, engravings on them.

And that's how, you know, they sort of told the story of Rome.

And in all of these engravings, you have this story of this, you know, the Rome defeated the enemy, and Rome, you know, protected itself by subduing the barbarian.

And you know, all of these things.

And you know, a lot of these are feminized, right?

A lot of these people that they are subduing, or a lot of the time, you know, these feminine, feminine looking, you know, beasts or creatures or people.

And this is the story.

It's told, you know, and it's, it's funny, because in Rome, and also in in the history of empire, it's sort of like this, oh, well, it's self defense.

You know, they're coming after us, and so we just have to defend ourselves.

And therefore we will do anything to defend ourselves when, you know, really the only threat is empire itself, right?

So, yeah, I think, when it comes to ideology, I think it's steeped in narrative and and fear based narratives, and it's, it's a story that is created to so that it can sustain itself.

So empire, you say, also, then creates this dualism, right?

That's binary thinking.

It's us versus them.

They're attacking us.

We're defending ourselves.

It is power over how do we resist this binary thinking way of thinking and hold the tension of paradox of what is reality on the ground and what is real and not just this dualism, which is really harmful today.

Yeah, you know, I think dualism is a really, really, really, really hard one, because dualism is so embedded into Western thinking, not just theology, but just general thinking.

I think that is really at the crux of so much of how we present our relationships, right?

I mean, I mean, I'm thinking about right hierarchy, or I'm thinking about all of these homogeneity, right?

All of that is sort of the bedrock of that is dualism, right?

One is better or one is worse.

One deserves to be on top, while the other is on the bottom.

I mean, I think dualism is really the crux of it all, and it's so steeped in Western thinking, and it's steeped and it's so personal too.

And I think that's the thing about dualism, that it's not just how we view others, right?

We see others, yes, us versus them, or this person you know, has more value than the other, whatever, but it's so personal.

It's dualism is so embedded into who we are.

I mean, so much of how we view our own selves is so fragmented, and Christianity only makes this worse.

You know, the mind versus the body and the soul.

You know, the spirit versus the heart, and the heart is deceitful and the body is deceitful, and only the spirit, you know.

I mean, it's so embedded into how we think of ourselves.

I mean, even me, as someone who is feels like, you know, I'm actively and intentionally trying to decolonize and actively trying to resist from these ideologies.

I constantly find myself having to fight against a dualistic way of thinking, not just you know, when it comes to others, really, but just in myself, you know, and how I view my body and how I, you know, and how I even think about again, my children, you know, and just Oh, bad and good and right and wrong and and so much of life is not lived that way.

And so I think it's, it's so such a cognitive dissonance that we all suffer from when we are so steeped in dualistic thinking all the time, and yet our lives are so non dualistic.

And so I feel like we're constantly trying to fight against what is real and what I mean.

We experience grief and joy at the same time, and yet we can't understand that.

And so we push one away, or we feel guilty for you know, and I think it's a constant battle that we are fighting within ourselves.

And so I think to resist dualism, right?

In order to not see the other as an other, I think it starts with ourselves, right?

It starts with our own bodies to see our you know.

It starts with our own minds.

It starts with how we fight.

Function in our own, you know, day to day living.

Because, man, that is one that I think is really, is really tough, you know, and because it has such really harmful repercussions throughout history, right?

It mean, it really, it affects us personally, and then it that reverberates, you know, because how we treat our own bodies, how we treat our own selves, is how we're going to treat and and you know how it's going to reflect to others.

And so I think that one you know, to answer your question, how do we resist?

I think it's a very, very personal journey of undoing dualism and really becoming comfortable with a paradox of of what it means to be human, of what it means to sit here and experience, you know, deep joy and love and beauty in my life, and also know that the world is full of such deep, deep pain and not trying to ignore or erase one for the sake of the other.

I think we need to hold that.

I think we need to hold the pain and the grief of the world and also just the beauty of our own lives, right?

I, I, you know, I put my children to bed, and I am overwhelmed with love for my children, and at the same time, I'm thinking about the children in Gaza who are dying from starvation.

And I that's not something I can settle within me.

And I don't think that should be settled.

I think that that should just be a tension that we live in and not ignore one for the other, or think one should be, you know.

And, yeah, so I think it starts there.

I think we want to start there.

You talk through a lot of things that we want to embrace as we're resisting empire, where we're brace embracing things like kinship, connection, wholeness, rest, peace.

The question is practically now that we see the the tentacles of empire have been embedded everywhere, and it's really difficult to get away from that to be human again.

How then should we live?

What does it look like to actually live in a different way, a way that actually the tentacles are not wrapped around us anymore, pushing us to the margin, to the edge of society, but actually we're rooted, we're grounded, we're human with one another.

What does that look like?

Yeah, well, I think it's taking, you know, as I mentioned earlier, taking a bit of all of this, and starting where you can and where you are and what makes sense to you, and as you unravel, as you move forward in this notion of decolonizing, it's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna start to make more sense for you, right?

And so for me, you know?

And again, this journey is extremely personal, right?

I don't think that any two people can be on the same journey, because we have, obviously, we live in different places.

We have different places.

We have different lives, you know, we have different jobs, we whatever.

But I think for me, you know, even when, even, I mean going back to writing Abuelita faith, I mean that was a big journey in that, for me, was embracing, you know, what is it that faith, that, you know, the pastors, and the pulpits and whatever have told me is genuine faith, and have told me is true wisdom, and where have I experienced the divine outside of that right?

What is my truth in that?

And that for me, started with, you know, the faith of abuela, the faith of my grandmother, and digging into the wisdom of my ancestors, the wisdom that formed me and that formed God in me, right?

What does that wisdom look like?

And then from there, you know, I was on my own personal journey, right, of rediscovering that wisdom.

And then for me, it was rediscovering my relationship to the land, right?

You know, my family, we decided to move out of the city and move into, you know, out into the middle of the woods.

And so that was our personal, you know, journey and we're working on, you know, we have a relationship to the land and a relationship to the animals.

We have a small farm.

And, you know, there again, there's so many different ways.

But I think, you know, what does it look like to nurture something, to love something that is unloved, whether that be an actual, physical thing that you can nurture, or what does it mean to build relationship with someone whom you can receive wisdom and love?

And you know also, you know, because something I talk a lot about, too, and I've talked about this in aulita Faith, is that in so much a Christian, you know, relationship, those of us with privilege often feel like we need to be the ones you know in the position of host, right?

Or we need to be the ones that are hospitable or giving or but what does it look like to receive love from those deemed other?

Or what does it look like to receive, yeah, these sorts of things from people that that we've been told that we can we have.

Nothing to receive from, right?

And so I think it looks like, there's so many ways that it can look like for us, I know for me, I when I was living, you know, back in the city, I had a relationship with this woman named Jesse, and I write about her and in sacred belonging.

But you know, she was a black woman that lived in the neighborhood for as long as, you know, as she could.

And you know, for us, for me, so much of these life, so much of my life giving relationships that I experienced was sitting with Jesse, drinking Diet Cokes, you know, talking about what, you know, what the city, what it looked like, you know, when she was a kid, and what, what life looked like, 2030, 4050, years ago, right?

And that, you know, that gives me a bit of knowledge of my own history, of the land I sit on, of the ground that I walk on, you know what I mean?

I mean that for me, felt like such a rooted, grounded thing is to really, she was like the Abuelita theologian in my neighborhood, you know.

And that was a, really, for me, felt like a way to resist against, you know, just all the noise, all the noise was to sit and have a Diet Coke with Jesse and learn about, you know, what, what this land was like, you know, 3040, years ago.

But you know, it goes beyond that.

I think, as I mentioned earlier, you know, what is our, our relationship with productivity, with time?

Are we living by the seasons, right?

Are we, you know, understanding the way that the world is resting and dying and re and coming back to life, and are we allowing seasons of birth and death and and, you know, rebirth in our own lives?

How do we function in relationships?

You know, in in our whether it's like our church jobs or whatever kind of work.

I mean, how are there?

Are there relationships of hierarchy?

Are we, you know, fostering true kinship and that all there is true equality and that we are learning from those deemed you know less than you know?

A small one for me is, you know, I have a toddler, and my toddler takes forever to get out of the house, takes forever to put on her shoes, takes forever, you know.

And am I instilling this sort of Empire's constant, you know, need for urgency and for rush and for hustle in her by telling her to constantly hurry?

Or am I making sure that I'm setting up my life in such a way that I'm not passing that on.

I'm not passing on this need for constant urgency and hustle and productivity.

Am I letting her just be?

Am I, you know, providing space in my day to just think and to just be?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's just so many different ways that we can do this, that we can be in community one another, that is not relationships, of you know, where it's not based on just simple charity, but based on receiving wisdom from others and belonging.

I think belonging is a big one, and that's sort of the whole the crux of this book is because we all want to belong, right?

I mean, I think that's the reason why we all go to church.

I think that's the reason why we all seek out religion.

I think that's the reason why we all, I mean, one of the reasons I, you know, I do believe that there's a spiritual component to that, but, you know, I think that belonging is the foundation to so much of the human experience.

But belonging with an empire is always conditional.

You Belong, so long as you you know X, Y and Z, or you belong if X, Y and Z, and I think that that's what we see in the church, right?

You belong if you do these things or say this prayer or believe this exact you know theology.

But what would it look like to belong to a community or belong to a people that you belonged with no ifs or buts or conditions.

And if you don't find that in the church, I think that you know, you you can look for that elsewhere.

I think that that's you know, where we can we can seek true belonging.

Is that if the church is if where you're at right now is not you're not finding that, then go somewhere else and start developing true belonging there.

And you bring Jesus in there, when you do that, you know what I mean, like God, God goes with you there.

You know, I think I have, I have a friend who, you know, left the church because it was such.

You know, she was experienced so much harm.

And, you know, she joined a rock climbing community, and, you know, and she just has found beautiful, true belonging in this community, and is experiencing the love and the grace of Jesus in this community.

And I think that, you know, for so many Christians, we're so riddled with guilt, and we're so riddled with how we should be and how we should act and what we should be doing.

You know that we stay in these places that are toxic and harmful, and all we're doing is just, you know, redoing the cycle of harm that empire, you know, wants us to or has constructed, you know,

now all of those are so good, and I think we actually have to have a new vision of what life needs to be these days, especially when we're talking about, like the productivity nature of society of West.

Western civilization as we're continually moving, like, progressing forward, multiplying, growing, we always have to have, like, growth of money, right?

Or, you know, Western civilization doesn't really work.

And so if we're caught up in that exactly, it's, I mean, I think this is why we have a loneliness epidemic.

This is why, you know, people don't know how to connect anymore.

This is why they're, you know, there is no belonging in a certain thing, because we are cogs in a big machine that is leading us somewhere that is not like life.

It's not humanity, it's like machine, yes.

I mean, yeah.

And I write about in the book, I mean, if you go back to the history of wage labor, and I mean literally leisure, like, just fun, was actually constructed by, you know, the Overlords of capitalism, who constructed leisure and then put a price tag on it.

They said, Okay, this is when you're going to work.

This is when you're going to be off.

And then when you're off, we're going to charge you to take a, you know, for a train ticket to go to a baseball game, you know.

And it's we've constructed this life really, around being cogs in a machine and, and I'm not here to say, like, jump, you know, yes, jump off.

But also I know that that's, you know, virtually impossible in this society we live in because of the systems we live in.

But I wonder, how can we begin to imagine something different?

And I say that, you know, I wish I can give, you know, do this, x, y and z, but it's like I said, it's so personal, right?

And so what?

What are things that you can do in your life?

You know, as I write about in the book, you know before, before this whole wage labor and the the where people had to work in factories and all that, and you know, you had to work nine to five before that.

I mean, people rested and ate and did all these things as the season and as life, you know, sort of led them into.

You're tired, you sleep, you know, you you stop and you rest.

But now we don't know what that is.

You're tired, you keep going.

You're sick, you keep working, you know?

And so I just wonder, you know, what?

What incremental changes can you make in your life, to seek out this other, to imagine a new way of being, and to seek that out, I mean that can literally mean going for a walk instead of sitting at your computer.

I mean, it really can look like anything, but I think it just requires you to get imaginative and just look at your life, your day to day, from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to bed, and take inventory of all the things that is keeping you captive, whether it's to productivity or to or to any of these ideologies.

And how can you just begin to untangle and unravel, you know, for me, I just, I wake up, I wake my kids up an hour earlier so that they can take an hour longer to take, you know, to put their shoes on.

And I'm not rushing, right?

I mean, we still, and we still end up rushing sometimes, fine, you know, there's grace there.

But, you know, I really, I mean, like, what little changes can you make so that your life can start to look less like a cog in a machine and more like someone living in wholeness and someone flourishing and connected to true belonging?

You know?

I know people might hear me say, like, leave the church if you're you know.

And that may be like, you know, make them feel a little bit uncomfortable.

But I just mean that so much of the church, too has become that, you know, Empire and imperialism.

When I talk about the energy behind expansion, I mean, you see that so much in the church, right?

It's just this energy of planting another one, of expanding to new territory of just, you know, try and push our ideology to new people and more people, and save them so that they can become like us and and so when I say, you know, find another space, I just mean, like, where is there?

Where can you know, where is there not true belonging, if you're not experiencing that true belonging, if there is a push to be like Empire, to wear you down like a cog in a machine.

And that is, I don't believe that's from God.

I don't care what church it is.

I don't believe that that, you know it doesn't I'm not saying that the path, whatever.

I'm just saying that that space that you're inhabiting, something needs to change, and maybe that starts with you, fine.

Maybe that doesn't mean leaving.

Maybe that just means doing what it is that you need to do and change.

And changing, you know, but I think that so much of Empire's ideologies has so corrupted us and our churches that I think in order to find true liberation, it means, you know, taking chances and being, you know, just doing things that I think might ruffle some feathers, and it might just really, just change our lives quite a bit, and it could start really incremental, but, yeah,

that's so good, Kat, that's so good.

I think that's gonna be liberating and helpful for a lot of people to actually be able to find belonging where they are and where they're at.

As we end here.

Can you give me a couple recommendations and.

Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend.

Okay, yeah, so let's see.

I I've been literally only reading fiction this year.

I have not read one theology book all year.

After I turned in my my manuscript, I was like, and we're done reading theology.

It's been wonderful.

Yeah, I've read a lot of great fiction novels this year.

My favorite is Elizabeth strouts, tell me everything, and the correspondent by Virginia Evans.

Those are just two non religious at all.

But if anyone is interested.

And then one show, I'm a big show person.

I love TV shows, and I don't know if any, if you've seen or if anyone seen it's, I don't think it's very, very popular, but it's called resident alien.

And it's, yeah, I've seen it, you've seen it, okay?

So I feel like it touches on so many themes of colonization and so many themes of what does it mean to be human and identity.

And I always recommend the show when I'm talking about theology and Empire, because it's such a funny and quirky and weird and deep show that really, you know, I think if you allow, if you allow your imagination, to go there, I think it could really take you into a lot of these different places, and have you wrestling with a lot of really good things when it comes to, what does it mean to be human, and what does it mean?

And, yeah, what does it mean to be to arrive somewhere as a colonizer and be transformed, instead of doing the the trying to transform?

But yeah.

Well, liturgies for resisting Empire is out November, early November, anywhere books are sold, Is there anywhere you'd like to point people to to connect with you to get the book?

Yeah?

Well, you can, I mean, if you want to send me a message on my website, cat armas.com Also my sub stack is just cat armas at substack or substack.com I don't know how that that is, but yeah, you can find me on substack on social media, cat, underscore, Armus, and you can order my book right now.

For if you're listening to this before it's out, it is 40% off and free shipping at Baker, bookhouse.com so I think that is a good deal if you want to go

Well, Kat, thank you for this conversation.

Thank you for taking us through empire.

What it is, what it looks like, what you're trying to say within this book.

As we're resisting empire, we're embracing all these other things that don't look like the tentacles of empire that have wrapped around us and have got all their tentacles in us.

So thank you for this.

It was fantastic.

I really loved walking through it with you, and you are a gift to the world.

And so thank you for your work and what you do.

It's fantastic.

there.

Great.

Thank you so much, and it was wonderful chatting

with you.