Hello everyone, welcome to this week's game time episode of the Indian Express Sports podcast.

Has been quite an exciting series with India and England fighting it out for all twenty five days possible of a five Test match series, and it ended on the twenty fifth day with India making it to too after nearly more than a month and a half of exciting action, there is no winner, kind of some sub test cricket, to be honest.

And we are joined today by Ahmed Kama as usual, but more importantly we have our sports editor Sandi, who is here for the podcast.

Of course, he's just back fresh from England, just getting his jet lag out of the system still as we record, so that we can discuss more than just the cricket.

You know, what was it like to cover such a long series on the ground and more exciting nuggets around the series rather than the cricket itself.

But one place only to start the cricket, Sandeep, First of all, your lasting impressions of the series as you come back to India, what would you take away from.

And there are several in the sense like I think every day was an event there, every ball was an event.

I think last day absolutely a dramatic climax which nobody would have expected.

But yeah, there are quite a few.

I think for me it was that Shupman Gills to sixty seven.

Right.

I've been covering cricket for a while now, but that was one inning.

I actually wrote in one of my pieces also that my very first test was the two to eighty one previs lucchen in two thousand and one at Eden Gardens.

Right.

And I think innings which will stay if with me for a long long time, will be this two sixty seven by Schumann Gil somebody so young but playing absolute perfect cricket, absolute perfect batting.

Batting is an extremely difficult art, a small piece of wood where you have to connect it to a ball which is going all over the place, for somebody to connect it in the middle of the bat for so long it was absolutely incredible.

I think anybody who would have in their lifetimes, if they have connected a ball to the bat, will understand what I mean by that, right to get those things right, beautiful, forward, defensive.

I think that was one shot which which is quite unappreciated, like unless and until somebody and somebody can do a dead bat so beautifully, so gracefully.

I think it was this and his covered drives.

Will I think I see all we can all talk about.

The pitches were not what it used to be.

The bowling that Anderson is not there, swort Board is not there, s Stortward is in the community box.

So right.

But yeah, for at any level, even if you try street cricket, try score to sixty seven runs, no or nothing a match.

For a reason that it's been achieved only, it's been bettered only once ever in this one hundred and fifty years plus of Test cricket.

You want to join, you want to take from here?

Yeah, so obviously you know you spoke about Schumann's batting.

I wanted to know, you know, what are the unique challenges that a tool like England puts across on players.

Bead batters, bead borders.

Okay, I thought you ask what challenges are pot I think you'll start with that joke's apart, but ye are extremely difficult for any player.

I'll give you a very basic schedule off a Lord's Test match.

I was speaking to one of the coaches and he explained to me how difficult it was.

So they stay at a hotel called Same James, which is very far at least in the evening, it would take them one and a half hours on the road in their coach, which is the team bus.

So you start your day at around six seven ish, you get up that early.

Then it's eleven o'clock starts, so I think you start from your hotel at around nine ish or much before that.

Nine you have to be there at the ground and start training.

So matches will start at eleven am.

It can go on till six thirty because in England it's daylight till ten at night, so that's another very freaky thing for somebody going there for the first time.

So the match gets over at around six thirty, it could be seven thirty.

Also, then you have your press conferences and then you start from Lord's and then you again go to in the crazy London traffic back to your team motals, so you will be reaching at around eight maybe nine.

Then you will need some time for rest recovery, You will take a bath, you'll go down for a meal, and then you have to sleep early because next day again you'll have to start the same thing and then you okay.

Lords were slightly difficult in terms of numbers, but you do this day in and day out for five test matches, it's extremely difficult.

There were a few big gaps between Test matches, but then there are the kind of workload which the bowler is the batsman, I think Gil again, Gil said something very interesting.

He said that as a captain, it absolutely drains you out, especially a series like this where while you are fielding you have to keep thinking about how you get a batsman out.

So he's saying that was much more draining for him than to actually bat for so long, so extreme pressure and then they kept bouncing back for me, incredible feat which should just be appreciated.

Sanisa.

Just to touch upon shopman Gil, I mean you spoke about the batter a little bit.

I wanted to ask you about his pres conferences that he was thinking about the first press conference I think when he was announced captain here.

I remember Mehiv and we were discussing in our podcast as well.

It look very You could see that he's a little tentative, he's not really fully at it.

But I saw the last press conference, the one where he was sitting next to siaj and you was like cutting in with banter.

Appeared very confident.

Even that press conference where you immediately find that story saying you know, I want to clarify there came ninety seconds late.

There was a certain sense of authority and he seemed at ease.

I mean it doesn't really mean too.

Much, but no, it's extremely like you absolutely pointed out a very good point.

See the point is you just think from the background he comes from.

He comes from this really small village.

That's where he grew up, right a border town close to Chundiger.

He's close to the Pakistan border.

He hasn't got and nobody does.

And these cricketers generally don't get time for academics.

They don't go to school.

He goes to Chundiger where he bats.

As the story goes, he would train for at least eight as a day, so no time for anything.

These guys don't really get time to even read books, even if they want to.

But it's an amazing transformation in cricketer which I have seen in a number of them, Gil being one of them and one of them who has done it beautifully well.

But the way they address the media is amazing, especially for this generation.

Like somebody like Jessuall also again it's not his first language.

He struggles, but he makes it a point that he answers all the questions in English.

But Gil is almost like, we're at Coli level.

I think we're at Coali would truly go down as the most articulate captain besides being the greatest batsman.

Right, but Gil was extremely good, you say about that Jack Crawley thing.

So there he made it a point he almost was waiting for that question where these are the questions are supposed to be the difficult question as such, but he almost prepared for it.

But at that point you could see that anger in his voice where he wanted to clarify, okay, like you guys are saying we twisted the rules, but yeah, we were forced to.

And there's another thing also, I think Birmingham was it, so he was.

One English journalist reminded him that you guys have a terrible record and you've never won an Birmingham.

They're also so he answered him on that day and the next day when India won in Birmingham, he goes for the press conference and then again somebody raises that issue, some Indian, like a smart Indian reporter trying to get a good quote.

So he again reminded you what about that question you were asked in the last press conference where you were reminded about the India's record at Birmingham.

He said, yeah, yeah, he's one of my favorite reporters.

Where is he today?

So yeah, he is taking them on and very authoritative, balanced and he doesn't get angry, which is very different from we're at Kalie, We're at Goalie.

If he loses, he would have a whatever, not a kind of an ugly exchange with a reporter.

Not this guy.

So he takes But one thing cute about thing is, like most of the answers, he starts with haserata.

Even for in English, he would say, sir, yeah, you asked that question.

So I think going ahead, he needs to decrease the number of sirs.

I think the reporters don't need to be addressed this sir.

We are fine if you just answer the question.

So also wanted to unders and you know you spoke about in essence Schumann's evolution over the course of the series.

When you were going there, what was your perception of this team, because I know a lot of chatter was about how this is an inexperienced team.

No Rohit, you know, no, we're at very very young.

They go into the store and then somehow they I mean through the sheer force of will, they've managed to draw the series to to how did your perception kind of change.

About this team?

What did you learn about this team from that series?

So yeah, honestly, like I'm giving a very honest answer, like when we decided that, okay, Indian Express wants to cover this series, so I thought that, yeah, I wanted to go for one big reason that I thought that it was the last series where Rohit and where Art would play.

So since I've covered them since they started their careers, I thought, okay, like, at least nice if I just see them for one more time.

So then both of them announced the retirement before they start, so there was slightly skeptical with I had a chat with our dear colleague Shiram Verra.

I said, Riira, should I go?

He said, okay, you should see this young team.

Because then I also thought it had made a lot of sense because yeah, you see such a team in their first series, it helps you to write about them later also, right, because these certain things very early in your career, stay with you, and then it helps you to write about them, get a good prospective about them.

But absolutely honest, I'm very honest when I'm saying that I wasn't sure whether we'll do well, right, because I had my doubts about the opening pair, about the middle order, because you didn't know who your number three was.

We till actually don't even know till now.

But then I wasn't even sure about Risha Punt, who was He had a terrible series in Australia.

Gil was great, but was he a really great player abroad?

His statistics didn't show he had a few good hundreds, but not the big hundreds.

But then something amazing happens, Like he scores very early in the series, he keeps bettering his own scores.

Right, I remember writing in one report that it's almost like Paul Walter, who keeps raising the bar.

I'm pretty sure that, okay, this but I gradually increases.

Bupka used to do that so famously that he would get a bonus for every world record, but he would go gradually every millimeter at a time and he would collect his bonus.

So I think that's sort shoot months.

I think once that first test where Punth scores one hundred in each of the innings.

Yesesh, we scores one hundred.

Gill also scored.

Yeah, one forty seven he scores, and I think something amazing happens.

Before the second Test.

Gil comes for the press conference and the one thing he says that I am really disappointed because we lost.

Plus I could have scored much more because at one forty seven I hit a really lousy shot.

Now imagine somebody first Test as a captain.

He scores one forty seven and he blames himself for the loss.

If he says that if I had stuck around with Punth, we would have scored more runs.

Now that is a sea change from what we have heard in press conferences from cricketers in the past.

And then he actually does better in the next Test.

He scores a double hundred.

So I'm saying once, I think after the first Test, maybe we lost, but you knew that, Yeah, this team had it in them at least there will be definitely be a fight second Test, be going to win it, And yeah, that set the series so beautifully.

I think, honestly, we could have won the first one also, and we could have won the second one also.

We could have won the third one.

Also, fourth we drew and fifth credit I actually it could have been four nil there.

I think they're pretty close.

I think first week if you had bold better, second we one third, if Siraj is from the middle of his bat, the defense could have slightly gone ahead.

If it hadn't spun back, maybe we would have won that also.

So yeah, amazing, incredible series which nobody could have predicted Siniza.

Just in terms of the slightly more negative aspects of the series, there was constant criticism about the team selection.

I mean, even we were wondering are there being two defensives.

There's a little bit of white qualification in their red ball selections.

Those things kept coming up, and I don't think they budged.

Till the end.

I mean they kept maybe picking Karunaia was I mean even that could be seen as a defensive move.

Essentially, is there a case to be made that this two to result and this fight and this great desire that they should to compete on all that was despite the selections and not because of the selections.

Is there an argument or do they stand vindicated in some sense?

I am in the former camp.

I wanted to know how did you see that?

No, So it's an interesting question.

It can be argued both ways.

But yeah, see how I see it is slightly differently in the sense I'm looking at a bigger picture instead of going into the playing level of each Test match.

Now you imagine, like almost from the second Test, it was a no brainer that Cool Deep should play incredible pressure on everybody, like we've lost the first Test, we're going to play the second.

But somehow this team just sticks to what they believe in, Like forget the rights and wrongs of it, because we can go on till midnight and there won't be an answer to That's so in case if but what Karun did score a fifty, Washington didn't take wickets and he also scored run.

In case, if you had cool deep cool doesn't know how too bad as the wide.

So it's a endless debate.

But I'm saying, look, going ahead, what we should understand about this team is they have a certain conviction and they stick to it.

They always believed that we want a longer batting lineup because our bowlers can't bat.

So this is something which they stuck to till the very end.

See I think a bit of a background wid help here we were going into the series, which, as I've said earlier, also no number three punks.

We are not sure whether he is our test batsman who can be trusted.

Right, to be very honest, if I was the coach, I wouldn't trust him in the sense in England because he had a very terrible Australia series.

Plus Ip also wasn't that great.

We're playing a first match, so there were doubts about that.

But it can also be argued saying that in case if we had taking bowlers, then we don't need to score that many runs.

There's an absolute legit argument.

But again, like since you are since it's two two, and we can always point out to those fifty that current scored what she stayed for the entire session two sessions he played, he was not out.

But then again, when you played the combos, then you think that, okay, like do we have the strength and we have enough bowlers, So yeah, you wanted more bowlers because God knows how many runs these guys will leak.

So yeah, the good thing is they have certain they stick to it and they get the results right.

So then I think at the end of it, one to three.

Can if you are winning the test like the way you do, then what can change?

It's a very illogical series.

Boomra doesn't play two test matches and they win, right, So it can't be argued that boom Ra isn't a great bowler, right.

But yeah, it's a very complex and complicated series, which we can have our argument, but I will rather stick to the bigger picture that Okay, at least they believe in certain things and they stick to it.

And crazy criticism like from Rubbisha's three to ask for everybody's critical So at times teams tend to get swayed by these criticisms and they try to follow what it is being said, either on social media or by the experts.

Then you get more messed up.

Then you do things which you don't believe in.

But at least this team sticks to certain things which can be a set and also can be alive.

Yeah too, you can't argue, I guess so you just wanted to understand this conviction you speak about.

Where does that is that more.

Because of Gumbier to the coach or Schumann captain or is it both of them together at the same time.

It's difficult to say, I wouldn't have that insight into what exactly happens and who has to say.

But broadly what I understand is, or what we hear things here and there, is that they gave it to Schupman to take these big calls, be it not playing Cause, be playing Washington.

So I guess A Girkher was there, who was the chairman of the selection committee, Ajida Girker, and Gotham Gamdeen was there.

So what I've understood the process is that they'll tell Schupmann is these are your options.

These are the los and don'ts or whatever classes and minuses.

Now you take a call.

So most of the calls are taken by him, and see very noticeable in this series was a young captain making his series debut, but there were very few messages coming from the dressing room, so at times you could see that he's faltering, his plans are not working.

But still he would do his things.

And so later we told that the coaches and the selectors they're thinking, let him make a few mistakes and he'll learn from them.

And I think he'd learned.

Like a first Test match, we couldn't defend a big total, and there were some terrible sessions where Schubmann had some horrible field placements.

I think even in that one of the test matches where Markel, the bowling coach, came and said, this is the worst session we had.

But still they'll let them do what they want to.

So that I think coaches conviction gotam combused conviction, gills conviction for sure, and then allowing Guild to have his conviction, which is I think is again a massive change that.

But yeah, they will of course not allow Guild to do whatever he wants to, but yeah, he gets his space to think, so maybe and he looks like a guy who has got certain ideas and he would stick to them.

Just one specific afternoon that I wanted to ask you about was the lodge last day?

What was it like to be in the ground that?

I mean, I know each of the five matches had its moments, ups and downs, but to me, I think one of the most unforgivable, even though Intera lost, it would be the last maybe two sessions at lodge.

What was it like the atmosphere and just could you guide that?

Yeah, I had two pages ready with two world documents ready, with two different intros.

Is getting eleven thirty and I am very sure that at least as we need to fight two reports.

But it's very messed up in the sense like I'm just talking in terms of a press box and most of the people are worried.

They're walking around saying that what do we do?

Like do we wright saying that how the Indian batsmen almost screwed up a very simple chase, and we would blame the batsmen at the top order, how they should have scored, Kales should have stuck around pun should have struck around this and that?

Or do we celebrate the way the tail enders did it right?

So and if England wins it, what do we do?

So it absolute as in nobody had any idea what would happen, and that Boomera sticks around for more than fifty balls.

Siraji is playing like a top order of batsmen.

Jadeja doesn't seem to be getting out all through the series.

They are sticking around.

Stokes is bowling the spell of his life, like so Stokes also had.

They also have some kind of a workload management.

But he pushes.

He doesn't care about whether his body wouldn't be able to take it, and he's bowling a crazy spell.

Joff Archer is returning again his but so very difficult.

I think in the standal so you could see that the Indian section of the crowd they are cheering but not sure whether they should be cheering.

Then the English are now gradually trying to figure out okay, like this could all go wrong.

So yeah, and even on the you could see the conversations between Siaj and Jadeja, actually Siraj insisting that I can play, like why are you farming the strike?

I can take them on but and he absolutely as in I think Siraj later said in a press conference that somehow I felt that day that they couldn't get me out right, so he said, and his biggest regret was I middle the bat and Jadeja is telling me, please middle every ball and I did that.

Still the ballspun and hit the wickets at the same time.

Even if you have to even look at Shoebashiel, the English spinner, like he had hurt his finger, he's got a fractured non bowling up, but he's still bowling.

He's still fielding with that.

I think one of the stops which he did before the ball, right, Yeah, he did that also something it's that kind of a crazy thing.

I think at the end of the series there could be a criminal in all, but I think both the teams just understood that how great cricket both the teams have played, so that two two is a very fair result.

And post the win there was this crazy atmosphere within the two teams where they knew that each team has tried really hard, so there were no ill feelings because everybody had tried really.

And I think that Lodge Inale also kind of summed it up there.

Everyone went to Jadeja and absolutely embrace I mean Lodge was probably the most heated tests and the end of it to have amid the anything you have more.

Yeah, I think before we let we think should pivot to his own process because he spoke about, you know, the challenges of reporting, So just wanted to understand before you go on a tour like this, you know that you know, maximum only twenty five days cut test match melega, but there are these big gaps as a reporter, how do you prepare to you know, just for those gaps.

How many interviews did you kind of just have lined up before you even landed there?

How much prep goes into something like that.

Actually, yeah, like yeah, I will give you a correct answer instead of we're just going the trying elect no no.

But yeah, So see, I think it's a basic thing.

That's a really long tool.

So what you can plan, and what should everybody plan, is at least plan your first ten twelve days, right, See, both things we need to keep in mind that you also don't need to be too jacketed and full of ideas.

Okay, I'm going to do this regardless of what happens to the series.

That's a very bad way of planning things.

So I think my basic plan was I think there was this huge gap between the first and the second test, right, so that was the time where you should be prepared for the early part of the series where the series is just shaping.

It's just like what's happening.

But I think once you get a drift of what is going to happen in the series, okay, then I can't stick and go Okay, I will do the interview.

I'll do Darren Go interview regardless of the fact that submun Gill hascored a double hundred.

So that doesn't work.

So you need to be prepared for the first part of the tour, and then later you could keep in mind that, Okay, I'm going to Birmingham, so there might be a few those kind of days.

So okay, I'll have a few ideas for the third four test matches or before then, but then I'll allow the series to take over and then I'll start thinking about ideas on the go, as in thinking on your feet.

That works for the later part of the series, but early part of the series you have to be really sure because yeah, you are going to a new place.

You will have loads of logistical issues where people don't understand.

It's like a lot or a lot we need to go.

You go to a new country, you need to get a phone right, you need to get your Airbnb right.

You need to understand the transport of that place.

You need to know where I am staying.

You're not even sure whether it's a safe place or not.

When I go from the ground, should I be walking to the ground, Should I take uber?

Will it be expensive?

Should I use the bus?

So there are loads of these other things which we have to take care But yeah, that's the fun part of the job.

I'm not complaining about it at all, but I'm just saying you will be preoccupied with these kinds of things, so very at the start of the tour.

You need to be prepared with loads of stories.

I think the smart thing is you talk to people before the tour starts.

You have the stories ready.

If you want, just go there and meet them one more time, get a picture with them.

So yeah, and they know you, they're expecting you, so that those things work, because once you go there and start searching for people in the early part of the series, that won't work.

So be prepared for the first part of the tour.

For the second part of the tour, let the action take its goes and like run with the action or else set pieces don't work in the later part of the tour.

I think along with a really good cricket podcast, we've also got a good journalism podcast sugges.

A last couple of things before we start rounding up, where do you see England?

I know England treat every series as a warm up two ashes, but having been there for five tests, I think it's a tip of the hat to how English see their cricket that do you think they're ready for Ashes coming up?

I don't know whether the player already by the journalists are definitely because every press conference it was ridiculous at times where there's some crazy action happening on the field with the Indians responsible, the question will be okay, after this hundred, what do you think about ashes?

Will you be able to score in Australia, So they're massively preoccupied.

But again, like in Australia, I think it will be very tough for this team.

I think with that kind of attack, I'm not undermining Boomera or saj Or, but I think asil Wood and Cimmons and Stark, that's absolutely different beast all together and for this team, I think this baseball stuff will very difficult for somebody like duck At Crawley, Harry Brooks, Stokes, Jamie Smith, right, Joe root Is said to score one hundred in Australia after all this, I didn't know that, so I think that makes it extremely tough.

So I'm just saying for them to play that brand of cricket, which somehow is very compulsive for them to do it.

But I think what could work for this England team.

I think midway through the series they figured out that no, they can't do that.

See, I think the Opens are fine, they will play that kind of cricket.

But I think they're gradually realizing that.

Yeah, I thought, yeah, I think if they go back to Manchester, they should also understand how to draw a Test match.

They should go back mister Bass himself, Brendon mcwillum should just take them to a room.

Just show two video clips.

One is the partnership between JUDEI Jah and Washington and also Schumann and kl Rahul how they played two sessions of cricket.

I think that will be very important for them to do well in Australia.

I see, it's a very simple thing.

If you go searching for your strokes because there are against you think that you are bass ball and you need to play those strokes.

If you go searching for your boundaries and success, then you will definitely need to not work in Australia.

But yeah, if you are there to punish the bad balls, which you should, I think, but that's siny.

It's easier said than done.

Extremely difficult.

Balance and bowling also anlings, too many injuries and the present lot.

I think if you see the kind of spells, early spells with tongue and concerned and yeah in the last Test match, all over the place, five bad balls, one unplayable ball.

He doesn't get you too far.

Yeah, so just one last I think the best place to wrap up the podcast would be Siraj.

I think we were just discussing before we came into record this podcast that how certain moments of the Siaj would actually sum up the flow of the series, you know, from his heated exchanges at the start, then the lord's heartbreak and then the drop catch on the penultimate day and to hold that spell just the series of Siraj y.

But I think for me, the most cutest and the funniest thing was was said about him.

So Siraj has this thing about getting angry with people.

He's such a nice guy that anger doesn't suit him at all.

And Joe Rood says that when he gets angry, we know is the fake anger.

We could figure out that this is such a great guy.

He's not the kind who would get angry.

But yeah, it's lovely to see him interact with somebody like a cash deep right, and the way he would interact with him as if like taking an absolute position of him saying that okay is my job to tell you.

And this is a very funny moment.

Why oh Deep is giving his first interview after those six wickets he took and he just buts in into the interview says to since that kind of a guy.

So Siraj has been the life of the too easily, Like we eat a practice session where he'll be just chatting up with people and some making fun or making some cracking some smart joke and everybody laughing around.

So he is definitely then and the kind of bond which he shares with Shupmann is also very nice, as in there have been a few cases where he would tell Schumann to play some fielder there and should will not agree, and then they will agree and then they'll have a funny exchange.

So yeah that way, Yeah, Supmann is handling it very well.

And also one thing which people need to remember.

A lot has been said about Boomera and how he should have played in all and now shows, but you need to listen to Siaj to understand the importance of Boomera.

The kind of reverence he has for him, like that is what I think this country needs to have much more for just he is the big guy.

He is the real deal.

We can get excited about great wonderful we should be, but please respect just be.

That might be a podcast idea for next week.

Actually I might know that anything about it.

Thank you s wonderful having you recall a lot of these moments that we probably wouldn't have sca seen on the TV screens between all those annoying ads that we have to put up with, but wonderful recalling what was a truly memorable series to two it ended, but there is so much that happened from the first day to the last.

And of course there is a diary that Swer has written on the pages as well.

Do check that out online.

We'll probably link that to the program notes for this podcast.

Thank you so much, so much for joining in from Mumbai.

And that's it for this week.

We'll join you again next week with another episode, hopefully with me here back and there might be something very interesting to discuss next week, but we'll keep that under wraps for now.

Thank you all.

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