Hello and welcome to Express Sports Podcast.

You are listening to Game Time and Whenaya Kamit and I Mahir are joined with a very special guest, so she has been a pioneer of Indian sport.

Shooting is the sport we will be talking about today and shall be doing something different than usual.

We'll not be analyzing a lot of action that's happened over the week, but what we'll be doing is basically an explainer over something that on surface looks a profound change in the sport of shooting rifle shooting, where the International Federation has proposed some rule changes which will be in effect starting twenty twenty six once ratified, and we shall be breaking down those rules, not amongst us, because Amit Vinayak and I humkid Nay said curling, so we've got a very special person to do that, the Pali Deshpandi, former India shooter stalwart in her own sense and the coach of the Indian shooting team who's been to multiple Olympics and shaped many many careers of world and Olympic medalists and champions, the Parliman.

Welcome to Express Sports Podcast.

Thank you for taking your time out.

Thank you, mayor thanks a lot, So, ma'am, we're.

Right away dive into this thing first of all, to kind of summarize the rule changes.

We'll go into the details slowly, but the change broadly is about the equipment in rifle shooting, the measurement of the jackets, the kind of shoes that the rifle shooters will be wearing.

And I found it particularly interesting that the International Federation in their proposal said it was to curb quote unquote technological doping and to bring down the scores, which I hit the ceilings.

As someone who's been involved in shooting, I don't know for four decades now, yeah, thirty eight years, how do you see these changes and how big are these changes changes?

To be very honest to me here these changes, they are big, maybe to some extent for some athletes who have started with you know, these rules.

See the rules for equipment rules had been there since our times and more orized.

The rules are the same, but during our times, or you know till around say two thousand and four or five, they were not so strongly implemented because nobody really had that kind of access to these equipment or you know, nobody had that kind of resources to make the most out of these rules, like you know, find loopholes, build equipment which falls into the norms of whatever ISSS had already had in place and still gave extra advantage.

But I can say after around twenty eighteen onwards, like it was available to Indians even before twenty eighteen, because if you see, the Kapapi Sports is essentially an Indian manufacturer of the kate equipment that is being used right now and it is being used by almost you know, ninety percent of athletes all over the world, and that started happening from twenty eighteen and then it came into you know, light that it is giving extraordinary advantage and all of all that stuff.

So the rules that they're changing, they just want to go that extra advantage that it is giving two athletes where skill becomes secondary and you know, there's support of the kid becomes primary.

And because of that, a lot of that is happening in India also, but even abroad, like a lot of other coaches also were complaining that they have very young shooters and then after a certain point they just vanished, so that hierarchy or you know that climbing a ladder gradually that thing is gone and it is not good for sport.

You know, the sport will die very soon.

So yeah, this was the issue.

Like I always felt that this is not right, and you know, something should be done as an athlete and as a coach, because we see sports as a something that helps up an individual.

To grow well.

But here that growth was kind of fabricated.

You can say.

It was very sudden and the drop was also as sada.

So that was not what we worked for.

And you mentioned, you know the existence of the sport, and that's something that the International Federation also mentioned where after the paras Olympics, the feedback that they received wasn't that great, both in terms of how the sport looked on TV and the International Olympic Committee as well.

So I'll just quickly summarize the rule changes before bringing and I was been waiting patiently.

So the first thing is the canvas.

Now, it will be important for anyone listening to this to kind of you know, first maybe look at the picture of a rifle shooter, because this sport is extremely technical, So you have an image of a shooter in front of you, perhaps that will be helpful.

So you have a canvas around the shoulder and arms, that the thickness of that it'll be changed once the rule comes into force.

Then the button tolerance has been increased from seventy millimeters to eighty milimeters.

There's system ten millimeters difference, but it means that the jacket will be less tight fitting.

Then there will be the thickness the double canvas in the lower back area of the trouser that will be changed into single canvas, so again the thickness will be different over there, and perhaps heartbreakingly, the parlyman for all of us, we won't be seeing the penguin walks anymore because the shoes, the rifle shoes are also now changed and they'll be wearing what normal sneaker is going forward.

So basically, I think they're trying to take away as much balance and support as possible from the shooters, and I guess it will be more towards skills.

Man, we want your views, but amit?

Do you want to come in before that?

Yeah?

Me.

Also, I think, just for clarification, these rules kind of will only apply to rifles.

I mean, this is also one thing we need to mention for people who are probably listening to this podcast, and maybe don't understand the differences that this supplies only for rifles, not so much to pistols or not so much to shortgun events.

But ma'am wanted to understand from you in terms of scores, how much difference do you see these rules changes kind of bringing about.

There will be definitely some difference.

Scores will come down a bit, but not as much as these rules.

You know, on the first look what it seems it's not going to affect so drastically because you have to understand, even if we take the Indian shooting area, a lot of top athletes are already physically fit, you know, those who are very consistent at the topmost level.

So maintain that consistence.

See, even with the old rules, like the current rules, they need to have a very strong physic okay, So for them, it is like it will just take them some time to adjust to these rules.

And if you read these rules carefully, they haven't changed the stiffness stiffness previously.

Also it was three mm now Also the allowed permissible stiffness is three mm, so stiffness will be the same, but the layer you can use to get that stiffness will be just one right now they use double canvas, so that double canvas will go.

We can use only single layer.

So in my opinion, the scores will go back what they were in twenty eighteen nineteen because that was the time when you know, the overall worldwide there were different manufacturers providing different kind of equipment, and that those who are widely used.

And the major difference that will happen is you won't see, you know, just in two years somebody rising to the top.

That thing will not happen anymore.

Everybody would have to work their way to the sun.

Reason why you won't see suddenly any shooter coming.

Up, Yeah, because what happens is because this stiffness and thickness and the kit basically that gives you a lot of external support.

And even the new shooter if he understands the basic technique, very very basic.

Finally, and if the kid fits him well, the shooter can shoot you know, thirty plus cost six thirty plus goes very easily.

You see so many youngsters producing those scores in you know, two years, two and a half years, three years time.

But the skill level or the fitness levels are not so good.

And of course these shooters they don't remain at the top for a very long time, but then coming to that level.

Also, I think, you know, it should be graduate if we want a real talent to come up and stay there for a longer time.

So that is not happening right now.

So that will happen if you see from twenty eighteen too now and especially you see this trend in even three position event where previously it used to take a long time for athletes to really excel in this sport.

So yeah, that trend will be reversed a little.

Hi, my man, this is night here.

Thanks again for your rollier insights.

My question is, so, just to summarize, would it be fair to say that the youngsters would have to do a little more work in terms of skills and this would kind of bring in the because we see like shooting is trending towards becoming youngswer sports.

You know, you'll we see a lot of teenagers coming through, not just in India, around the world.

But this now brings in the slightly more experienced, the people who have the skills to still succeed, brings them back into the fold.

Yeah, I think for any sport to survive and stay for a long time.

The shelf life of an athlete is also very important.

See, these are not very commercially very viable sport.

If you just have then three four, like one or two Olympic cycles, you know, to perform or to excel, then it doesn't become a very viable career option or investment option.

Also, so when you invest so much money, energy and especially the time of youth, then there has to be you know, I won't say guaranteed a output, but at least some kind of like the longer shelf life is always a better options.

It always gives hope to athletes that okay and I can stay longer in the sport.

So that is very important.

And in India it may not seem very difficult because of the population general population, but the smaller country trees, they're already facing this issue that younger athletes come in and they replace the experienced one, and then experienced one don't have the resources to continue or complete and then they leave.

So that is not good for sport.

Makes sense, and that's kind of what I was hinting at.

Just what have you seen is the reaction on the ground initially, I mean generally, when there are these changes to any sport, in any discipline, there is a little bit of shock, but yeah, little.

With the youngsters, or you can say little, you know, relatively new shooters, because the elit athletes they're already working.

They have been working on their say, skill or their fitness for quite some time, so they are very comfortable.

We tried in the camp also, we tried, you know, making them shoot without shoes, without trousers, without jackets, and they're all.

Comfortable that way.

We are all aware that now we cannot shoot that you know, extraordinary, unbelievable scores which you know, suddenly everybody started shooting for six thirty six, six thirty five, So that will.

Come down a little.

To say, the range will be six twenty eight to six thirty two, which is again not bad, and that is still six thirty two is still considered a good score, but the general average will.

Come down little by four to five points.

And in air rifle and in fifteen meters events also like I don't think you will see fin ninety five fine ninety seven, so easily it will be somewhere around five eighty seven to fin ninety two.

It will settle there.

So the effect will be not so drastic in terms of results, but yeah, in terms of the general working of sport, it will definitely change a lot of things.

Mum, just before me here comes in, I wanted to ask one question in practicality, what does this mean?

Now?

Does that mean that those original jackets that were bought by shooters, do they have to be discarded or can they be again there can be some juguard.

Not ju guard like you know NRAI arranged a meeting with all not current elit athletes, but Olympians and awardies and with we included nilesh Running also who's the owner of Cupuppy Sports to understand, you know, what changes we need to make.

So they have said that yeah, the stiffness of material remains the same, but they have put the conditions right.

Currently the rule says the three mm stiffness that when you put the material in the machine, the stiffness checking machine, within sixty seconds it should reach three mm threshold.

So now they have radius this time to fifteen seconds for single layer and thirty seconds for a double layer.

So we can just cut out the inner layer like inner lining.

Shooters just have to remove inner lining and use the same jacket and.

The outer lining.

It's like that will just that will might pass just on border this new condition that three mm in fifteen seconds.

So I don't think that way shooters have to, you know, get new equipment right away.

They can use the old equipments with these changes for maybe a year or two and then get the new one.

Right man, as a coach, how important does your role get now, because I think there will be a lot of shooters, especially like you mentioned, the younger ones, who perhaps will have to I don't know, learn, but at least focus on a lot of skills, the basic skills.

What happens now up to say, end of this year, before the rules take effect in twenty twenty.

Six, yeah, I think we will see more experienced shooters back in the team.

But to be very honest, we already have, like in at least for Indian shooting, you already have those shooters at the top anyways, simply.

Because they the years, because the.

Competition is so staffe they had constantly been working on their skills and their fitness, so they will remain there.

And the younger lot, which you know on and off come into the team or very close to the team they'll have to work a little harder.

But to be very honest, you know, during the last few years we had been able to establish a system and we were really very successful in bringing awareness among shooters that fitness is very very important for any sport and even in shooting sport, whatever support this is giving you.

So as a coach also had always been very vocal about it that whatever support you are getting or whatever scores you are able to shoot.

Now if you want to continue performing at this level, you must focus on your fitness.

So that doesn't change even the younger lot.

And when even in the now we are international squad camp is going on.

So during this camp also once they published this document, as I said, we started training them, you know, without goods, without trousers, without jackets, just for them to understand that, you know, which are the areas they need to work on now going forward.

So yeah, we are there to guide them and help them on these all these aspects.

And it's just a good thing.

Is because they got a you know, a high start, so they have a good self image and the level of confidence.

So now they will definitely strive harder to reach that place again.

If it't all they go down.

So yeah, that is one thing very positive.

And uh yeah, Now the general ecosystem in Indian shooting has evolved a lot from you know, in the last ten years, so physical fitness, mental health, and technical expertise, all of the thinks.

Everybody is aware of, uh you know, how much work they need to put in because simply because of the competition they face at national level.

So it's not going to affect too badly, but there will be some effect.

I'm just wanted to understand because you spoke about fitness so much.

Let's say there is somebody who's listening to this podcast and they are amateur shooters or somebody who's looking to make breaking it into the national team.

Can you explain for them how fitness can kind of help them bridge the gap with what they will lose with this equipment cut tweak.

See, even when we started shooting, like I was in NCC, so I was much fitter than a regular girl who's just going to college every day.

So the general good fitness.

Generally, if you're playing any other sport, you already have a certain level of fitness.

So for shooting sport, to start with, general fitness is also good enough and then as you go move forward with you know, you learn, they says, you get good posture, you learn the technical natigrities of the sport, and.

Then you gradually grow.

Why I'm happy about these rules is they.

Will grow gradually and not you know, suddenly you grow to reach the pick and then.

You drop down.

So especially that is not good for their general growth also and for their sporting life because then after that they keep struggling to reach back and it hampers their self image.

The gradual growth is more sustainable and long lasting.

So they just need to work gradually on themselves.

The general fitness is good enough to get started with the shooting sport.

Got it, mama, We start wrapping up this thing.

You know, just these rules changes.

Of course you've explained them pretty well.

Just about the shoes.

I wanted to understand right now we have flat souls and gave complete balance.

I think when the shooters were standing at the range.

Now, what kind of shoes are we looking at and how much will those impact?

Will shoes actually matter more than the jacket or shoes.

Will matter more than jacket and trousers because the shoes where we are currently using the high ankle boots.

The flat soles are okay.

You use them for a long time and then they bend, so flat soles are still okay, and you can have flat.

Soles in normal eCos also.

But more than that, the support it was giving to your ankle joint or you know, ankle, that will be gone now and that will add a considerable sway.

So that is going to affect the most.

Everything else will not affect so much so that we need to see how shooters adapt to that.

But again you just have to include more balancing exercises.

You have to work on your ankle stability.

So there is a lot of information now available, a lot of experts available, like very much Indian experts available on these areas.

So I think, yeah, a little walk needs to be done.

It will take some time for everyone to settle down, but eventually we will make it.

And whatever the rules are, they're same for everyone, right right right.

Just you know, before I proceed, I think Vin just has said that he wants to ask something, so lest I think.

You've spoken a lot about the rule changes and all that time, I just wanted to understand, like, how do you see the season so far in terms of results?

What Scotty or eye, what are the areas to improve?

I just wanted to.

Mean, I know this was about the rules and stuff, but I also wanted to discuss.

Yeah, I'm very happy honestly, because you know, I always believe that as Indian shooting arena has been growing gradually since nineteen ninety four onwards.

If you see every Olympic cycle, we were going one step forward.

And of course Rio and Tokyo they're not very happy about.

But even that is like Rio, I think it was like the transition time we were like banking a lot on individual's effort.

But from Rio onwards we started.

Putting that is the time when you know, all these as a team or a national shooting arena, the entire ecosystem.

We started building the ecosystem around this sport where at national level all shooters had these facilities available.

So from Rio onwards, that.

Was you know, it was kind of I always call it system generated results.

So that's why Tokyo was important.

But of course COVID hit us and we were not ready for it out of the ordinary.

We were not ready for that.

But in Paris we were ready for anything and we delivered.

So this is my belief that you know, going forward, we should now it is a much higher leap towards LA and so that's why this season like the first kind of Olympic year or twenty twenty eight Olympics.

So here in if you see, in all three.

World Cups, we were like in top three leading countries and we won I think on an average four medals we had in all these three World Cups, and we won individual medals, Like the World Cups are all about individual medals, so individually and different different individuals won medal for us, So that says a lot about our general strength or waning strength.

And all three World Cups had different level of participation, different challenges like Argentina, Peru, very windy ranges, very difficult ranges, Unique relatively easier range, but the highest participations.

So the competition was very very stiff.

So in all three World Cups in different different situations.

Also you know, we won, so that says a lot about our readiness right now.

So going forward, and.

There are a lot of factors I can see where we need to put some work.

So once we do that, we will go much higher.

So I'm really very happy about the season and now going forward.

We have Asian Shooting Championship and most importantly World Championship in November, so that by the end of this year this picture will be really clear.

So we know where we stand right now and which are the areas where we need to work to make sure that at LA we have you know, the best of the performances.

I think you mentioned that briefly.

There's a breadth of talent to pick from you not like individual driven.

I think rifle is a good.

Example of that.

I think especially ten meters women's in the talent competition.

If you see now we are sending team B to China, Team A to Asia and Shooting Championship.

You see the team formation, you cannot make out which is Team A and which is Team B.

So we have Olympics even Olympic medalist in Team B now, so both the teams are equally strong right now.

So that's the kind of bench strength we have.

And we created this because and this kind of bench strength you have only if you have all the systems in place.

So yeah, a lot of credit goes to of course an RASI Sports Ministry and also to the individual academies like private academies.

They had been working for quite some time, so it's like an entire ecosystem working in you know, in a coordinated way that is giving us these results.

One finally, question from my side, I wanted to understand, you know, you said that the shoes will be something that has the biggest impact on scores or you know, how shooters performance goes.

When you tried in the national camp asking shooters to shoot without the shoes, how much of a difference was that.

Was that very radical as compared to without the jackets, with you know, different jackets things like that.

Honestly, not very radical.

It's like some of the top athletes, they perform the same as they perform otherwise, but they were like not all of them.

You know, out of say I have sixteen shooters, So one shooter shot one ninety eight in standing, that's amazing, or one ninety six in standing, that's amazing.

But otherwise that same shooter shoots one ninety nine or one ninety eight, so say two points down.

But that was like on the first day when we asked them to do that.

So if we work harder on the challenge, then we can even beach that one in one ninety nine, two hundred score mark.

But again, see if you have a five or ten shooter shooting one ninety eight, maybe after these changes we'll have just three four doing it, so you know, depending upon how much work they put in.

Incredible, ma'am.

I think it's been a wonderful education for us listening to your explanations on this new rule changes, and you know shooting is a sport of patients, and you've been patient enough to answer all our questions.

So thank you for that, man, and thank you to all our listeners for listening to our podcast regularly and tuning, and we will be back with a new episode of Game Time next week.

Thanks again the Bali maam, and thanks again for listening.

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