What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness.

1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over.

We can't help ourselves.

I say when we sell.

Hey, OK.

I say when we sell.

Nestled in the heart of Texas, the Early Riders Venture Firm is building a place for the best entrepreneurs and companies to work, think, play and meet.

A place where Bitcoin is the hurdle rate.

A place for the fastest horses to rest by today for the 2026 Builder Residency Program.

All righty, we're back.

Another episode of The Last trade.

Is this final settlement the last trade on Rent Media Production?

On Rent Media special production on site.

On location, we are in Nashville right now, lots of Bitcoin events going on, predominantly hosted by Bitcoin Park today and tomorrow.

The Custody and Treasury Summit is going on and then the Imagine If conference, which is a little bit broader Bitcoin AI energy, I believe that's Friday and Saturday.

So we're we're in town.

I'm joined by Michael Tanguma, Liam Nelson and Matthew Ball.

Gentlemen, how are we doing?

Well, it's great to be in Nashville.

Doing good.

This is an interesting podcast.

We are in a very nice Airbnb tomorrow night.

This will actually be released tomorrow morning.

So if you're around Nashville, reach out.

We're going to have a big event across on ramp.

The portfolio company early riders did an ad hoc studio set up really beautiful Airbnb on 12 S or anybody familiar with Nashville and to have we have some exciting stuff to share.

Yeah, some, some big announcements and things that we've been working on for a while.

And maybe Michael, I'll hand it to you.

This is kind of your baby, but Early Riders is launching what we're calling stables.

What is that?

Yeah.

So I think a lot of the things we've been doing, we aim to lead from the front.

Maybe it's by design.

I don't think it's actually by design.

I think it's by instinct.

So obviously early riders, the first Bitcoin denominated venture fund, but also when we launched and built on ramp, we built it with a Bitcoin balance sheet, Bitcoin, you know, as its core value from trying to generate more economic value with the business and trying to recur and bring back more Bitcoin as an individual, I spent my own Personal Capital start the business.

And a lot of that as that happened naturally came with what early riders launched with Bitcoin denominated realizing Bitcoins a hurdle rate and it really is the most efficient way to build a business.

Well, as we're building that I happened during COVID to buy about 30 acres outside of Austin, about 45 minutes, which is naturally turned into a big hub for Bitcoin Texas in general when you think about energy production and then obviously technology.

And now if you guys are familiar with y'all, St.

Dallas has had an increase in influx of financial services, including Goldman Sachs, I believe.

I don't know if it's their headquarters, it might actually be their headquarters.

If not, it's about a 5000 person campus.

And so through this I had built on ramp kind of huddled at this 30 acres in this property.

And there was a lot that was learned from it.

From getting away from a little bit of the noise, the day-to-day meetings and really being able to just get back to the fundamentals.

And through learning from good friends and advisors like Cam Duty and Brickyard and what they've been able to do.

And just looking at previous really world class venture firms and investors building these heuristics that ultimately take people outside of the noise and the hustle and bustle.

It's important to call out noise because the world is more noisy and more chaotic than ever.

And so we're effectively launching, it's an accelerator, but it's also broader than an accelerator.

We're referring to it as a base camp where there will be the ability for on ramp and early writers, portfolio companies to call it headquarters for teams to come in.

We're basically remote, but this will be an opportunity for everyone to come in, whether it's quarterly, biannually to huddle up.

It will be equipped with education and daycare services for I have children and other individuals that our team are expecting or have children and ability to bring their families.

And then ultimately Wellness, when you think about the gym, sauna and all the things you would want if you're going to be working, you know, weeks on end.

And so to tie all that together, we're actually launching the accelerator to go along with it, where we will be soliciting different entrepreneurs, different builders or folks really that are still in the traditional grind of Fiat world, trying to think about how do I get out of this and how do I start building what I want to.

And we want this to be a place for individuals to feel like they can call home, they can come and apply.

We're going to, we'll walk through the program.

But the idea is they'll be able to come for four weeks and get

funded anywhere between 2:00 to 5:00 BTC and set up the right platform, the right base to be able to build a long sustainable business.

It's a foundational thing that I think most people forget.

You know, I know he gets a lot of slack, but it's worth calling out and Peter till zero to 1.

Something that's always stuck with me is that if the foundation of any endeavor, it can be a relationship.

But specifically here, let's talk about business.

If a foundation is broken or misaligned, that'll permeate throughout the whole entire organization into perpetuity into it's really important to start with the right foundation to start, and that's where we think the stables and base camp will provide.

Yeah, that's, that's a good overview and we'll get into some of the details.

But I think one thing that you highlighted in there, you know, getting back to first principles, it's really it really echoes a lot of, you know, the theses that we've had at early riders from day one in the sense of, you know, restoring sound money principles effectively to capital allocation and and business building.

And so that's kind of like step one table stakes in our mind, like you have to be revering Bitcoin as a cost of capital, the hurdle rate, etcetera.

But then when you're actually going about, you know, thinking about what, you know, what's a commercially viable business opportunity, you know, you really do need to hunker down, block out some noise and work with a team, you know, ideally.

And so this will be a really great place for, you know, founders, entrepreneurs, and particularly people.

This is what I'm excited about is like people that are not even in Bitcoin, We talk about this a lot where, you know, the best, quote UN quote, founders in Bitcoin aren't even in Bitcoin yet.

They're doing something else in their own discipline, in their own area of domain expertise.

And they're probably, you know, maybe in their just in their personal investments, have some Bitcoin and, and they're learning more about it and becoming, you know, more and more interested in Bitcoin and, and maybe they have some ideas from their domain expertise that they think are applicable to Bitcoin.

And so that's something that I'm really excited to see just in the sense of I, I think we're just scratching the surface of the types of businesses that can be built, the, the type of value that can be delivered.

Because again, the, the best people, the best entrepreneurs are likely not even in the Bitcoin space yet.

They're on the periphery.

Maybe they're storing some of their own personal value in Bitcoin, but they haven't made the jump out of the traditional incumbent world.

And they're probably, you know, they probably thought about, you know, can I make change here in, in Tri Fi or in my incumbent industry?

And typically what happens is you're, you're confronted with a lot of other people who don't see Bitcoin the way that you see Bitcoin.

And so it's, it's very difficult to shift that inertia in a very large organization or, or a corporation.

And so this, I think will be a great opportunity for folks like that to say, OK, here's my opportunity.

I have this idea that I've been ruminating on for a year or year or few and and now, you know, here's an opportunity to actually go execute upon it.

Yeah.

I think a few quick things to call out.

We'll go deeper and later in the pod, but it's essentially we have built a really nice platform across on ramp and then the portfolio companies and we have some entrepreneurs and residents coming in that will be announced where there's a lot of economies of scale we can provide our teams and our growth.

When you think about legal compliance design, that's best in class because it's one of the hardest things, if not hardest thing in the world to take to build a business and really to build a business that generates Bitcoin revenue because the only thing scarce for the Bitcoin is time.

And so you have to really deliver value to be able to get, you know, somebody to pay you in that or be able to generate revenue to, to sweep into BTC.

And so to Brian's point, it's a daunting task.

And the idea is that we can help alleviate that.

But I want to kick it maybe to Matt Ball, because Matt Balls recently joined kind of our ecosystem and he was, he's a member now of Presidio Bitcoin.

He sits in Silicon Valley and I, we hope to leverage him.

We've already have he's been, you know, huge in helping us get this launched.

But really here what you've seen work there, what you think could be either improved or things that you want to be able to like help us as we think about building a hub.

Because everything I haven't been able to go but listen to the podcast occasionally and seen a lot of the different ethos they're trying to bring in.

Well, we know Silicon Valley and Track fight obviously has certain flaws.

They also have best in class processes and people that are engaged.

And so I'd love to hear kind of like what's going on there and how we can implement some of that.

Yeah, absolutely.

The Presidio Bitcoin does a great job of sort of cultivating that space for for Bitcoiners to come and and host events and and really just sort of allow people to come and build and grow together, whether it's a business, whether it's relationships and networking.

And I think the stables is a really great manifestation of the idea of a Bitcoin citadel.

The stables we give us a an opportunity to really allow people to come and not only work and but also live and sort of cultivate this this wonderful environment.

And when Michael reached out about the stables originally, I think something really clicked in me and I sort of realized that this is going to be an absolute joy to build out and grow.

And I'm certainly excited for us to break ground and make it make it just a just an absolute community and an opportunity for us to accelerate companies, but also accelerate people and bitcoiners.

And and yeah, the opportunity is just is absolutely grand.

Yes.

I completely agree.

I think what you mentioned that was that stuck with me the most and that I'm most excited about is pretty much starting from the ground up.

We didn't really touch on this too much, but we're especially excited about pre seed and seed type companies.

People with really great ideas who have done great things in the past, whether it's in the Bitcoin industry and whatever industry that they've worked in, in the past and know that they have the right type of skills in order to bring great value in the future.

But essentially starting them off with understanding what the right unit economics are for the business, how they should incentive their people, their partners, because obviously they're going to need the ways to distribute the product and make that commercially viable.

Everything from go to market to actually become a profitable business.

If you don't get that right at the start, it becomes so much more difficult.

It's essentially like trying to go West in the 1800s and not having any path to follow.

Like, you know, they're in Bitcoin.

There definitely is not a, you know, set map.

And Lewis and Clark haven't defined that yet.

But there are some people who, you know, have traversed that and understand essentially how to get from A to B and they can help guide you there.

And I think that that's a lot of essentially what we're trying to do here.

And there are complementary ways to work across our riders portfolio, which is really what I'm excited about here.

Yeah, I'll throw out a few things that have influence, some of the things we'll talk about why we're excited about it, and then I'd be curious you guys, which direction you want to go.

I've always been a curious individual, went into, you know, Silicon Valley tech.

I was like Google, I'm sure listeners have heard my story, but always been a student of just like business building and venture.

And the guys, I think they're a little hesitant for me to talk about because, you know, people get, you know, whether it's Uber or Travis, but there's a there's a lot that I always stuck with understanding.

He kind of went a little, whoa, that's probably where you guys.

But Chris Sacco is world class, probably one of the best from just a pure numbers perspective, like the Michael Jordan of venture capital.

And he had this notion.

He just realized he was tired of sitting in Silicon Valley taking all the coffee meetings.

And what really says what he claims to find his career was moving up to Truckee, Lake Tahoe and sitting there and really having anybody that wanted to meet with him go, go and visit him there.

And there's a lot to intentionality around putting something in a place that's a little bit out of reach to find out who's serious about it.

If you guys are familiar with, I'm afraid the name, but it's the cattle group.

He became famous like during COVID because he was doing a lot of the the meat kind of like, you know, farm to table and just like meeting your local butcher, Texas slam.

I can't remember the the group, but behind it is he set up this deal in Kerrville, which is the middle of the Hill Country.

And it was really special because he did it on a Sunday morning and there was bitcoiners there, but then there was also just, you know, ranchers and people local.

The community was special because Sunday morning in the middle of the Hill Country, everyone there wants to be there.

And so there's really something to to getting out of the hustle and bustle.

So that's one thing.

The other thing that I'm really excited about is I just learned in life like you have to kind of build it and they will come.

It's similar to early writers on rant.

And then also something like this.

There's no shortage of friends and world class people in the Bitcoin space that are tied into the Austin community.

I won't throw any names out, but I know that they're in their hearts.

Like whether it's growing a family or just seeing what's going on in Austin.

When you think about, and this is in all cities with the homeless and just a lot of the different crime that's happening that they want to move out, they want to go out and touch grass.

But it's like, who's out there?

Where's my tribe?

Where's my people?

And then the last part is just like, personally, when I moved and bought this property, I realized I had to get out and actually like force myself to get into the like, you know, touch grass, get out and away from the computer screen.

And so this was my way to hack it was bought some land, moved out there, haven't done as much as I'd like to, but I can kind of see as we go, whether you're an entrepreneur, operator or just your children, like obviously AI and technology are going to play a huge role in society moving forward.

But there's going to be the natural paradox or the kind of other side of that coin, the Yang to the yen of you're going to want to be able to whether it's, you know, learn how to cook your own or make your grow your own food cattle just using your hands.

And you think about like children as a great example is AI and all the tools are going to be incredible when it comes to education.

But you're going to naturally have to get out of that and actually figure out how to produce real value and realize, you know, I've been in in Nashville for about a year.

I'm excited to go back to Texas.

But you know, I think my kid, you know, thinks presents and food just come through DoorDash.

It's like, that's not how it works.

And so I know that this will resonate with some individuals as they're thinking about building a family already having a family.

And so that's one of the other things I'm excited about because I see that trend continuing as people want to get away from a lot of the kind of, I don't know, lack of signal that exists in a lot of these hubs where a lot of people have moved, but they've also become big distractions.

Well, yeah, you also get, you know, as someone who lives in New York City, live in Manhattan, you do get caught up in the day-to-day.

And it's hard to actually do, like deep thinking.

This is something that we've talked about is like sometimes you actually do need to physically detach from those environments to think clearly, deliberately, intentionally.

And so, you know, one thing you referenced I really liked about Saka is like it's a, it's a natural filtering mechanism.

And it's, it's very similar to what, you know, our friend Cam Duty has been on the pod a number of times has built in Chattanooga with Brickyard.

It's this natural filtering mechanism of you've got to go out to Chattanooga if you want funding from, from Brickyard, the the Cams VC fund.

And it's a similar idea here in the sense that, you know, you may have a great idea, but are you serious about it?

Are are you, are you really trying to get after it and execute on it?

Are you willing to come out and live with, you know, people that you may not know for a few weeks and just really work at that one thing, really hone in and focus on that one thing?

I think it's a it's a fantastic filtering mechanism and, and something that, you know, naturally, as you know, in a post COVID world, we've sort of gotten away from in the sense that, you know, a lot of teams are remote.

And while you can still do great work as a team remotely, there's something at the, the, the origination of something, an idea that almost necessitates breaking away from the mold the day-to-day and really having, you know, a place that is tranquil to actually focus.

But Michael, maybe one way we can take it is like, what are we actually looking for?

What, what types of businesses, what types of ideas are interesting to us?

And you know who might be good applicants to to think about the stables?

Yeah, it's a great question.

I think we touched on this last night when we were talking about what makes us a little different and where the opportunity arises and we got lucky.

When you think about the, the group here is a previous experience having built in the traditional markets, whether it's trad fire or traditional tech in Silicon Valley.

And then ultimately we have the luxury of looking back retroactively and what's happened the past 15 years in Bitcoin because we've seen what works, what generates economic value, what people really need.

And then we've seen a lot of quote UN quote tinkering and the things that are very interesting but ultimately are a little bit early.

I like to joke or say, you know, we all kind of know the bookends at least some of us where we're sitting here today and there's a future world where Bitcoin is a unit of account and everyone uses it and it's powering AI agents and everything else under the sun.

I think that's really the easy part.

The hard part is how do you get between here and there and stay alive or generate enough value?

So you have to go back to the Fiat world.

And I think that's really our unique edge is whether it's building previously Unchained, setting up venture funds previous to this, or just generally building at commercial scale.

Thousands of people, you start to learn and pattern recognize like what will the market tolerate?

What will they pay you for?

What will they not freak out or lose their mind?

When you think about custody and custody already is a very hard thing.

When you think about, you know, something that is ephemeral, like private keys that you don't touch and how can you push at the edges enough to be innovative and move the industry while also monetizing in real time?

It's the common trope of being too early is the same as being wrong.

And you see that a lot in this space.

Not to call out any names, but there's plenty of venture funds that exist.

But the reality is that the a lot of these companies do not generate economic value because it's just too early.

A lot of people don't use a lot of these tools.

You don't hear about it a lot because everyone's kind of backed in the same individuals.

So you don't really want to you know, you know, if you were trying to raise more capital, the last thing you want to do is say that will this company's you know, either running out of runway or hasn't really figured out product market fit yet.

So to that some of the things that come to mind are we understand this design surface.

We have a first hand seat at seeing how much proliferation multi institution is, is occurring across the world and really across sectors because it works for individuals all the way to institutions.

It's not apples to apples, but I think about like the iPhone.

You see Trump and Musk use an iPhone the same way we all and almost everyone in the US that can, you know, figure out how to get 800 bucks or $1000.

And it's very similar with multi institution.

We have, we're talking with banks, we talked with with the first pensions that came in endowments, family offices.

But then naturally across the world, they're also telling us that there is a big product market fit there because multi institution as much as it matters in the US, it actually matters more in Latin America and Europe and these other countries that are that have violence and kidnappings and all the things associated with why you want to put controls in place.

On top of that, I would say there's a lot of opportunity.

And then I know Liam and you guys have some other thoughts.

So the other one that comes to mind is really this one's been just like top of mind because I know it needs to exist, is there's an inherent unit bias into Bitcoin and it's what keeps a lot of people out from just understanding like it's just a better savings technology.

You don't have to buy a whole Bitcoin.

You don't have to buy a tenth of the Bitcoin.

You just have to realize that Bitcoin goes up, dollars go down.

And you can learn just by simply being able to stack $10 a month or a week and from financial literacy from, you know, children all the way to just individuals.

But I think a big part of that is just sats denominated, the ability to buy 1000 sats and see that in dollar terms go up.

And so I think there's a big opportunity to build some kind of sats denominated exchange that has a certain point, whether it's child financial literacy to help with them adopting it.

And then naturally that can grow into other businesses.

I think those are two that are come top of mind.

There's other stuff, but I don't want to hog.

I don't know if Liam, you have anything.

Yeah, for sure.

I would say, I mean to build off that point, it's more so just essentially commercializing ideas that everybody in the industry already has and pitching them a different way that, you know, seems more accessible to more mainstream types of people that already are interested and curious about the asset, but don't necessarily have exposure yet or or just want it a different way.

But yeah, to your multi institution custody point, I think that's an area that the industry hasn't really woken up to yet, which is surprising.

But there's a whole design surface there.

Everything from, you know, there's obviously everybody manages a key in that quorum and there can be different business models around that like Swiss based agent keys that just assigned keys all day.

And then everything to the design service around it, including, you know, how do you plug and play just like typical all the other financial services on top of it, essentially like offering securitized products like ETFs around it in like commercial ways to go to the public building prime brokerages, OTC dash that net settle in the asset and are just modular setup.

So then when the Fidelity's BNYML and JP Morgan's have their own quorum or, and it scales to five of seven or or whatever quorums in the future, those those things are going to necessarily be needed by the market.

You know, one thing we can talk about the where we know the book ends like single custodians are are not going to be around as as long as many people think and there's a ton outside of that.

I mean.

22 that come to mind is like the lending aspect has to we were talking about it, but there's the the the same way multi institution will proliferate for custody for either Pareto distribution or total custody because it probably gets to a point where if you're going to use a custodian, why would you have one single custodian be able to unilaterally lose the assets.

Lending will grow around this.

We've seen it work best in class where loans no loan losses for lending on multi institution in my previous firm.

We're in discussions and we've seen, you know, the different kind of credit based products when it comes to real estate, whether it's taking equity lines out of your own home and there's there's housing Bitcoin there or when it comes to some of the stuff related to bit bonds or just real estate in general, like the notion of there's no shortage of ways we know Bitcoin goes up and you can insert it in credit products.

The thing that nobody talks about is all these individuals are building around single custodial counterparties.

And that's fundamentally the wrong way to do it because what you're already doing is layering on risk, execution risk on these business models without ever talking about or addressing the underlying custodial risk.

And so you have to build on a better foundation before you can start to execute these other products and services.

So to Brian's point, he was saying or to Liam's point, like there's these products and things that are out there, but it really comes to the implementation, distribution and then ultimately the right foundation to really get commercial success.

Also, we're 15 years in, so there's a better map per SE to think about.

How do you actually build it in a way with the right foundation that doesn't scale?

And you have to raise 10 to $100 million and hire all these individuals.

You can do it in a more pragmatic and just efficient and discerning way until you get to product market fit and then you can naturally raise more capital before then.

But generally, people have these great ideas and then they raise a lot of capital and it's really the first way to destroy your business.

Like that's where this all stem from is I've seen distortion and loose monetary policy just fundamentally wreck business.

All the unit economics all the way you hire people who's actually interested.

And I was scared shitless of having that happen to on ramp.

So when we launched the business, I was like, screw it, like I have to spend my own money and we found out building, you know, because all my money is a Bitcoin.

So when you do that, you're like, oh shit, you got to figure out the best, most efficient way for every decision point.

It's not to say you don't spend the money because the purpose of business is, you know, to generate revenue and also you're you, that's the decision you made.

But you start to think about everything through that lens of, well, this asset's appreciating.

It could go up XY or Z.

So I need to make sure whatever my return profile of this endeavor.

And so we've seen this first hand, you know, the level of podcast for folks listening to you guys would be shocked at how many hours we produce, Brian produces for.

I remember back in the day we got quoted like $1000 an episode.

And I mean, I don't even want to say it because you guys would laugh and like them out.

It's just just just say that like your guys DoorDash for dinner tonight covers probably 3 months of what it costs to produce these podcasts and the shorts.

And that's just one small example.

But the reality is when you raise a bunch of money, you have no incentive to go and do that.

All you want to do is go figure out how to spend it because you're also told that by your venture capital, the venture capitalist.

So yeah, that's a little bit of the the way that this will really kind of change the white paper.

If nobody's listen to it, I would encourage you to listen or read it because after that was read, it's really kind of like I look at it as I don't want to call it manifesto, but I will like a manifesto of how capital formation will occur on in a Bitcoin standard.

Yeah.

And, and what I would add to that is, you know, I don't think he coined this phrase, but about a year ago, maybe a little bit longer, I think Michael Dell tweeted out something to the effect of constraints breed creativity.

And that is very much aligned with what Michael was just sort of articulating around the constraints of Bitcoin as your hurdle rate, as your opportunity cost.

I think what a lot of people miss is that they just think, oh, that's too hard, you're going to outperform Bitcoin.

Good luck.

Even if you don't outperform Bitcoin, the just having the mentality of that as your goal and that is your reference point actually makes you more disciplined.

It makes you a better capital allocator because you are assessing things differently than someone who is flooded with free money from, you know, various top tier BC firms.

And, and these companies like Michael saying whether it's we work or the, the slew of over funded companies today, they drown in that capital because it, it distorts the signals that they need to make the right decisions to allocate capital appropriately.

If you have too much money, it's actually can be a bad thing.

And so having those embedded constraints is actually what I think will make not only us better decision makers as GPS of the fun, but it'll actually flow down to the people that we back, the founders, the entrepreneurs that have that same reference or reverence for the unit of account of Bitcoin.

So I think it, it's, it's really, you know, a lot of this is coming for full circle in terms of, you know, where we started with the early writers thesis and, and now actually, you know, having a place for for others to recreate what we've done.

Yeah.

And frankly, this is like really crazy when you think about it because what we're talking about, what Brian just alluded to, it's not apples to apples, but it's pretty close.

Is it's like you're starving and somebody offers you the biggest buffet of everything you've ever wanted to eat.

And you decide.

But like there's some, you know, trade-offs, whether it's you gain weight, maybe you reduce some of your life because you just end up eating too much over the, you know, let's call it a year time frame or you decide to eat like the water and crackers or whatever.

In this analogy, it's like pretty crazy for somebody to do that unless they have a low time.

It's really comes back to a low time for a friends because it's like, well, if I really truly want to develop something great, it's like you kind of already seen it.

And that's really where a lot of the luck and you know, just what happened previously building a traditional Silicon Valley firms and then also in the Bitcoin space is you got a first hand seat of seeing the things that kind of pushed companies and decisions to the wrong points.

And so that's what led to a lot of the way we build on RIM very close, if not profitable at this moment in very early stages because there was so much foundational stuff that we had to get right.

It was somewhat painful, but it took part of that getting everyone bought into that that wanted because that's the natural heuristic as well as it does sound painful.

And this is not meant to like be a commercial for like, hey, this is all easy.

It's like everyone pretty much knows if it's too good to be true.

It is.

But the individuals that this like calls out or really get it are the ones that you naturally want in your huddle.

And so that's really the reality of all this.

If you have a good idea and you're marketable and you've been from, you know, traditional big firms and you can tell a story, you can always raise money anywhere.

The problem is you really just don't.

If you need to raise a little bit, you want to raise the smallest amount and figure out how do you get to any level of traction and right unit economics, Then you to slowly scale and above to a point of like distribution and real commercial scale.

Again, this isn't what people sell because in traditional venture capital, they return dollars.

They want to raise more dollars, and their whole goal is to tell you to spend that money as fast as possible.

So they can invest more, they can mark it up, and they can raise more VC firms.

And that was just never a model for a number of reasons.

And yeah, so like, I just hear you talk about it.

It's like it's really an insane proposition.

It just took like, understanding and seeing all this stuff blow up, not work out, and then just really out of self preservation, wanting to build the best company, something that I leave for generations.

And it's like the only way you can do that is to like, do the hard stuff earlier.

It's going to be screwed.

And then it's like, what's the point in wasting all that time?

Yeah, 100%.

I mean the white paper when I, I wasn't at early riders at that point, but I read it and I was like, well, there goes the private equity is because even if they don't actually hit Bitcoin as the hurdle rate, which you know, I think we have a good shot at.

But if they don't hit it like they're going to do so much better, even if they like miss it just because they're going to be actually chasing the right unit of account.

Everybody else is going to be taking out the NAV loans on their funds and levering up all their companies as fast as they possibly can and being like going to try to just get some marginal margin expansion just by cutting costs a little bit, not actually creating any value for the world.

But I think that the idea of just going back to actually what do people want?

Can we build that and how fast can we do it?

And in order to get profitable?

Because to your point earlier, I think that all the other funds are going to just go out and tell every single company that they need to raise a ton of capital so they can hit whatever metrics it is just like, you know, user growth, daily active users, even if they're negative gross margin, so they can give them a bigger round so they can go back to their investors saying, hey, look at this company we just marked up even though it was our own company.

And then, you know, get more fun essentially capital for the GP.

But it just doesn't necessarily make sense at all.

So I'm excited how this has been structured differently instead.

Yeah.

So set another way, you know our our goal as being Bitcoin denominated is to return our LP's more Bitcoin than they give us.

But as Liam describes, like, even if we just gave them their Bitcoin back like a 1X BTC denominated return over a 10 year time frame, that is likely to be a top decile venture return, if not the best.

And so, you know, if Bitcoin does what we all think it will do, so that is that speaks to the merit around, you know, having Bitcoin as your unit of account, your, your rate, your opportunity cost.

One other example going back to like what we're looking at or what we're looking for.

One thing that's always been super interesting to me and I think is an illustrative example is like draw me an E cash stuff like we've talked about this a bunch where super interesting from a technology perspective.

And you know, I think what we've seen thus far from the likes of Federman or Fetty, I should say cashew some others is all super interesting work, but it's it it comes to the question of like what is commercially viable?

How are you going to make this thing make money within the next 5 to 10 years?

And so, you know, one thing that we've talked about is like Shawnee and E Cash, these mints, the the guardians, what they're called in these mints, it actually looks and feels a lot like multi institution custody.

If those guardians were to be, you know, regulated institutions instead of, you know, Joe and Harry down the street, which is kind of where the building has has gone.

It's it's gone more towards like community oriented custody, which, you know, there's, there's I think there is a place for that, particularly in, you know, countries outside the West where, you know, people don't have access to bank accounts or other financial services necessarily.

So this construct built on top of Bitcoin is actually might be very useful.

But again, it comes back to the question of, well, is that going to make money?

Is it commercially viable in the next 5 to 10 years?

Maybe if you took a different route with that base technology and said, you know, it's going to actually look a little bit more like what we're doing in on ramp with MIC where the guardians are regulated entities.

Now there's a whole host of regulatory questions around what that looks like in terms of E cash tokens and the minting of those.

But that's just one sort of example of what we're talking about when we mean there are great ideas out there, but they sometimes need to be morphed or evolved.

It's something that is commercially viable within the next 5 to 10 years.

Yeah, I think without going too deep, the example is a good one in the sense of doesn't even necessarily have to be regulated.

It's more of the notion, well that's important and will be important for certain sectors.

You start hearing about, you know, the the mints side chains, like they all represent the multi state keys effectively in some respect, but it goes back to the commercialization understanding what will people tolerate.

And I think a big thing and nobody's incentivized to talk about this by the way.

So This is why you don't necessarily hear multi institution and where everyone's very short multi institution today, in the future won't be and you'll have all the VCs ape into different multi institution firms.

It'll be the standard, which we were very supportive of because you don't want to be alone in something like this because that means you're either really like probably wrong.

So we know folks are working on it and it'll be good.

But the point being is that on the E cash side it goes back to implementation.

So when you onboard, this is where a lot of our experience from previous and here thousands of clients, billions of dollars, you start to learn like the borders or the edges of what people will tolerate.

And one thing they won't tolerate isn't matter if you're a Ugandan farmer or you're here in the states or wherever you are and you're an institution or somebody with $10 or 10, whatever local currency is, you need to know who the people are holding the keys because you just and you need to know, understand how it works.

So most people here probably can't, you know, articulate like how an E cash works and the different mechanisms to get rubbed or not rugged.

But imagine having to go to that place and explain it to them and then also have to say that the guardians are anonymous or your friends or family.

It just doesn't scale.

And even if it did, there'll be other problems to the regulated side is if it hit any real mass.

Now you're naturally have you, you will catch the eyes of the people that really matter.

And then you're, you're ultimately limited there.

And so yeah, the E cash stuffs really interesting when you look at the side chain stuff with liquid does the Fetti mint as an example.

There's no shortage of real interesting novel ideas.

I think just the approach on how do you get commercial and that's really like maybe one of the interesting parts about what we're doing is we've been so early that you basically have two sides of the spectrum and they're both like really wrong frankly.

You have the right side which is like trad 5 Fiat where?

You know Liam.

Came from and maybe still has a little bit.

And at least his.

Friends do where it's like not Leo, but his friends like, you know, it's like they read that if they got into digital asset space, this is the 2022 group that blew themselves up and they're basically back for vengeance with these ETFs and Dats.

And they it's like they read the Fords of the Bitcoin standard, but they never opened the book.

And so they're doing everything under the sun that we all probably agree on.

And then you have the other side, which are the fundamentalists that got it right, the ideologues.

They get cold storage, not your keys.

The reality is though, is it's still been historically A hobbyist industry.

So anybody that's aped in 100% of their wealth had to really deeply understand cold storage, ex pubs and everything under the sun.

And that's great for them.

But the reality is everyone needs Bitcoin.

Everyone probably needs to be over.

I'm not going to give any financial advice here, but we all understand you probably need a lot of money in Bitcoin and it's very hard for people to do it in the current construct of what exists today.

And the only way to get that is to meet them in the middle.

And you got to look like, you know, and that was really where honor and stem from.

And that's really where you have to start at the highest levels because we operate like a private bank.

And then our private banking clients love to get exposure to what we're talking about because they're picking up what we're putting down and they see first hand at the level of scale, we'll be able to build that.

So they come in and naturally want exposure to the things we're talking about.

And that allows for us to fund more things.

I learned this very early because I came in from a pretty ideological view of I wanted to help people that didn't have capital save their wealth and preserve it.

But I learned really early, like that's a very ideological view because you need 10/1 billion billion dollar family offices or whatever in the space versus, you know, 100 or or 1000 or whatever scale, you know, farmers or whoever that's been disenfranchised across the world or in the US to get exposure because the liquidity is what drives adoption in the space.

It's what makes Bitcoin more valuable and ultimately price go up is the ultimate heuristic for adoption.

So you got to start at the highest levels where all the money exists to be able to do everything else.

And I think that's just a foundational fundamental thing that's really lacking.

The only other thing that I would say like that really gives us our edge is that we're builders like all day long, we're focused on building these businesses and then we get to spot the gaps.

We are our partners.

We have some really exciting investments we're going to be announcing and those came about and nobody has access to them because we're naturally building with them.

And then they see the value we're providing or responding to gaps in the market that they need.

And then we're able to either think about and put on a board on what we're interested in building or we're able to Co invest and all the things under the sun.

And so that's another real big component of this is when you go back and study, you know, the best investors, they really figured out a way to keep themselves busy.

You know, it's always a hack.

Like you look at, again, some of these may be exact and some of them are just like anecdotes.

But like Warren Buffett credits backgammon, you have the Nick Sleep.

And those guys, they did a lot of things with putting the Bloomberg Terminal all the way on the other side of the office with no seating so they could barely look at it and not pay attention to the noise.

And it's this reality as you figure out the hack to keep yourself busy.

Because the reality is the way to make venture investments or any investment is you wait for the big pitches and you swing and then you just get the hell away and let them do their thing.

Unless something like this, you help, but you're not out there with a hammer and everything has to look like a nail.

And that's traditionally what venture looks like.

When somebody's solely focused on venture, all they do.

And I remember this from a previous life and it's where I knew I had to get out was like all day long.

I talked to people that didn't want to give us our money.

Give.

US their money and then talk to people that we shouldn't be giving money to because they were talking and pitching everyone else and we basically taken ourselves out of that position.

Now, we haven't talked to a lot of people we shouldn't give money to, but.

That's him picking up some of the slack for us.

Exactly.

I mean Bitcoin is a hurdle.

Rate is a little bit early for people who don't understand Bitcoin.

That's kind of just honestly where we are today.

So there are a lot of people who necessarily understand exactly everything that we're picking up that we're putting down.

But you know what we've been non consensus and right I think a couple of different times with Bitcoin is a hurdle rate.

I think we pioneered that prior to anybody else and that's on everything under the sun, multi institution custody, commercializing that and you know, just the pension funds funds, the fund of funds, they necessarily they aren't all the way there.

I mean some of them understand it and they think it's really interesting.

But admitting that essentially needs to tell them that their entire worldview and how they've done things the entire way that they've set up all of their portfolio and company is wrong.

And there many people just aren't ready to do that.

Yeah, just like Bitcoin.

And so, you know, we're we're happy to be non consensus for a little bit longer, just until the world kind of understands everything that we're kind of putting down is actually what's right.

Yeah, 2 quick things to call out to maybe not get in the I don't think we got cyberpunk, but like outside of E cash and like traditional just Bitcoin, like edge tech is we haven't announced it yet, but we we've looked at kind of this notion of sound money renaissance in reality, that gold is going to persist and hang around Bitcoin a lot longer.

And so naturally looked at that and what does that synergy look like?

Also, when you think about registered investment advisors and institutional products, there's no shortage of opportunity for the intersection emerging of gold and BTC to help with the volatility For a lot of individuals, especially younger folks, it's harder.

It took me a while to realize like you probably don't want your grandparents or somebody old the 75 having a PIN to Bitcoin.

And if we ever do suffer another drawdown, there's a mix of having some component in BTC and gold and naturally they can, you know, overtime shift into that as they get more confidence.

It's much better than having no exposure in a 6040.

But then also when you think about Raas and institutional asset managers that come at it from the core philosophy, understanding education, best in class principles and then building on these primitives like multi institution that need to exist.

And they're really straightforward.

It really takes best in class understanding of traditional markets and then taking some of the expertise and understanding here.

A good example is First Covenant.

We partnered with them on the trust side, their multi billion dollar South Dakota Trust Company.

That's what you want, managing and dealing with an administration of a trust that is the most critical part outside of the underlying custody.

So you want those individuals.

But what does that merger start to look like when you have best in class from the traditional markets mixed with best in class here?

And that's really when the magic starts to happen.

So it doesn't even have to be on the bleeding edges.

I would actually argue that it shouldn't be on the bleeding edges unless it's something that really is has the right, you know, vein to tap into when it comes to penetration of a certain segment or the right time.

But it really is all the money sitting outside of Bitcoin.

So how do you just insert the things we're talking about here into where the regular the rest of the market is, is where all the real value is going to accrue, at least in this current moment?

Yeah, I was going to say you guys said a few things in there that I think are worth pulling out.

You know, being non consensus and right is something that we think about a lot.

And you know, another way to say that is, you know, zigging when others are zagging.

I think the gold example is a great one because, you know, I think historically there's been almost like a combative feel between, you know, hardcore Bitcoin camp and historical gold bugs, when in reality, like it is fundamentally a a very similar, if not the same thesis around protecting against Fiat debasement and sound money.

And I think, you know, we're seeing that, you know, gold is really leading the way.

It's breaking out to all, you know, new all time highs every day now.

And Bitcoin has been falling suit, typically in a lagged fashion, but it's a great example of again, zigging when others are zagging.

And I think Liam, you had said something around, you know, Bitcoin being the hurdle rate doesn't necessarily resonate with with people that are in track by or not fully into Bitcoin.

But with those types of people typically do understand is that, well, Bitcoin has some value.

They can maybe wrap their heads around its digital gold and then they can sort of make the leap to maybe I want to own the picks and shovels around digital gold.

And so that's where private market investment comes in around Bitcoin.

I think I'm curious to get your guys thoughts on this because, you know, one thing that I've been thinking a lot about is, you know, the, the life of our fund line is, you know, 10 years.

So what is commercially viable within the next 10 years in my mind, you know, the predominant use case for Bitcoin over the next decade is store value.

It's not necessarily medium of exchange.

Yes, there are pockets of the world that get great benefit from using Bitcoin as a medium of exchange, but everybody anywhere receives benefit from using Bitcoin as a store of value.

And so, you know, I think that's been, if you look at, you know, the past maybe five years or so of allocation in the Bitcoin venture space, I think there's been a lot of misallocation to things that again are great ideas, very interesting and probably more in the meaning of exchange type use case camp.

But the question becomes, is that commercially viable?

So I think my bias at least, you know, over the next 10 years is towards store value use cases.

And what that really means is like financial services around Bitcoin, so storing it long term, you know, barring against it, setting up insurance, inheritance policies, etcetera, things that are optimizing for saving in Bitcoin, not necessarily spending in Bitcoin.

So I think that's just another example of like, you know, having a bit of a different lens on the space and being able to step back and say what is actually viable here over the next.

Decade yeah, 100% One other thing that you didn't mention is just the rails of of broker dealers tail but that's going to be increasingly interesting as well as just the like some custodians for different banks just the plumbing that's naturally in the background of the financial institution of all the banks who aren't going to naturally create these different products and services themselves.

But yeah, I mean to kind of go against your point I I'm I'm starting to get interested more in just agentic payments with Bitcoin.

It's Google's launched their own deal now just their own API and they're getting stable coins for now and so just yeah I mean to your point like the the first people in the door are going to get shot and do things wrong but it's going to pick up pretty quickly and so I wouldn't actually be surprised if payments do start to pick up.

But naturally, you know you don't want to be the first person in the door because they're generally going to do things a little bit wrong.

Yeah, I think, I mean you guys are both.

Right.

In the sense of like it's very far sides of the spectrum.

I think it gets missed in traditional finance.

It's really shocking.

It's.

Actually happening in Bitcoin because I think we really like to try to be innovative in the sense that like, oh, custody is figured out, someone to work on something else.

But the reality is if all the economic value in the world or very large percentage is going to end up in these 21 mil and it's really going to be much less than 20 million given all the lost coins, you want to get really close to those assets because then you're going to be able to figure out how to monetize.

So that's something that just gets under appreciated.

Specifically the traffic space with all the stablecoin and just like focus on there and then to to the other side of the point of like yes, nobody's really using and and probably will for unless it's on the edge case and it'll grow as more people demand Bitcoin.

Naturally payments will grow, But to Brian's point, we're still so far away from people having enough just personal Bitcoin exposure that it doesn't really isn't congruent that they'd spend it.

But to your.

Point that the the proliferation of lightning and the notion of E cash coupled with artificial intelligence, now you have this ability for micro payments that are going to grow.

But I would say it's a little bit different.

It's more of like unit of account or need of exchange at a like machine level less on a individual level.

And that's really going to be interesting.

It's not like the paying for coffee.

Yeah.

But that's going to be interesting because that's really what everyone's been talking about is like.

When you actually need.

We talked about this the other day with somebody.

It's like the gold dealers should be accepting Bitcoin for their gold because they deal with wires and they don't want to reverse transactions and you're taking a bare ass and you're sending it to somebody.

And so it's the notion that we'll start to see gold Bitcoin payments proliferate in the areas that previous, you know, with.

Choke point 1.0 with the.

Gambling and the prostitution and.

Guns, like there's going to be different components.

There, coupled with ways that online are just going to make more economic sense to be using it.

But yeah, I mean, I'm curious on your side because.

You're in San Francisco, you see a lot you're I've been following because I know we're going a little over to to tie it back to like some of the things that you're seeing.

I'd be curious, but also.

Anything that comes.

Top of mind that we can implement because.

I think there's very.

Cool stuff that they've been talking.

I haven't been able to follow along as closely as I want, but around like builder days and different like activities and activation at Presidio where people can.

I think on one of the pods they broke down setting up like a list that's even public of ideas that they have and which I think we've wanted to do more on.

Final settlement is like talk about.

Just things that we're ideating on, we should really be.

Intentional and try to make it a segment so we get.

Forced to bring it.

Because then I think that naturally.

Helps where it can help.

You know, spark something and somebody listening or even in the discussion we have that's one that comes to mind.

But.

There's some other interesting.

Activation things that I think they're doing that are going to ultimately end up in some value accrual for that community or I know Max is an investor among others.

Just curious, anything that you're seeing there that we can potentially incorporate and also just in the Bitcoin space like from an investment?

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, at the Presidio Bitcoin, we've had hackathons and builder events and we, it really has just been a great incubation space for the greatest minds to come together and really work on the intersection of Bitcoin and AI.

And like, for example, one of the Lightning developers came and worked on a fuzzing solution using Lightning payments in order to basically test edge cases of some programming issues.

And myself and my partner in the hackathon we worked on sort of using Lightning MCP servers, which is again just really like digging into the intersection of Bitcoin and AI.

And I know you guys touched on Cashew and some of the other integrations.

And we get demos of that kind of stuff all the time in the Presidio where we can really see like we kind of mentioned earlier in this where we saying like the first people in the door get shot.

But you also see the opportunity there and just the, the real use cases of of that intersection and just how that will expand so quickly.

And I think and for us and at early riders and especially in the stables, if we have an allocator or a builder come and they have that lens of MIC and then we can, we can also look at that intersection of AI and Bitcoin.

I mean, that really just opens up the possibilities for, for us to be really on the leading edge of not only the builders, but the allocators as well.

And, and, and hopefully we can, we can see some pretty cool projects that spring up at that intersection, whether it is cashew, whether it is some MCP servers that, that are really tapping into.

I know, I know it's often considered a very buzzword and that, that AI, but it's a real opportunity.

And I think like sort of Liam touched on that, Google's rolling that out with stable coins.

But I think, I mean, we all see the inevitability of, of Bitcoins sort of taking the lead there.

And I, yeah, I mean, it's a it's a cool opportunity.

We early writers needs to be sort of checking that pulse, especially in in the Bay Area, just because there's, there's some cool stuff coming up and, and future hackathons and, and build their programs.

So it's a lot of opportunity there.

Yeah, I've always thought Max and and the guys there DK they've been on the pod multiple times, really savvy.

And it comes to what we talked about before.

And I've said this for a while, like, you know, some of the best founders and companies not only have any they don't exist, but they haven't heard about that point.

Like they've obviously heard of it, but they're don't have any idea what's going on.

They're just busy in their traditional job.

But then you look at somebody like an alma job that understands Bitcoin D clays building with that, that there's something to the lens and understanding of Bitcoin that allows you to see the world for what it is and just build world class things.

And there's other entrepreneurs like that.

And so that group to your point staying close and understanding, I think there's a lot of stuff that didn't realize that I think is pretty innovative and will help commercialize lightning and mints is what Spark is doing that I think is still going to take some time because there's a lot of new ones there.

But if you are the right builder that can understand it, understand the commercial viability of how to implement it or educate others, there's going to be a real opportunity to build on that design surface as it grows.

You know, you can't fade those guys having what $350 million back in an A16Z and previous time at PayPal and Libra.

So that's definitely something, I guess one thing to call out, if any of this is interesting, we're going to post a bunch of things.

But you know, if you're interested in getting involved, whether it's just, you know, you look at everything we're doing, you're like, I got it.

I got to get involved, I got to join the Guild.

I want to know what they're building.

I would encourage you to reach out.

And then also, if you're an entrepreneur and this is the kind of thing you're interested in, we're going to be taking applications.

We'll have a formal process that will go through and we'll get the top three to five companies.

They'll be able to interact virtually with our LP's, GPS, advisors, founders.

We'll set up a formal kind of demo day and then ultimately we'll pick a company to come into next year's batch.

So just want to call that out.

And then I have like a big question that's been top of line that I want to throw out is so Matt Ball.

When are you moving to Texas?

It's it's in, it's in the it's in the realm of possibilities for now.

I love the San Francisco area, but yeah, I mean, Texas, Texas is cool.

It depends on when we break ground at the the stables.

Well, that's.

Happening in Q4, so.

Yeah, that's what that's what I hear.

So I guess the second biggest question, Brian.

Cabelis When are you moving to Texas?

I mean, similar answer.

It's, it's certainly in the realm of possibility.

It's on table, it's.

We'll see.

I'm not going.

To ask Liam because I feel like Liam has like.

Tragic Liam's never moved.

It Liam's I'll tell you right.

Now he's done.

Tragic.

Too much freedom.

Like what is it Jimmy Axel or what's his name from Billions?

Bobby Axel, whatever.

It's like, that's like flowing through Liam's veins.

Because I'll be at the.

I'll just be at the stables for a few months, a year.

That's fun.

Does that.

Work.

Yeah, that's perfectly Yeah.

Yesterday Liam was.

Sharing family members, you know, personal relations, everybody I feel like is in tratifying your network.

So I think it's gonna be.

Impossible, but it's OK, we need nodes.

They're all gonna come to Bitcoin, don't worry about.

It no we need.

Nodes, we have New York City covered and that ball will be our, you know, kind of like, you know, our proxy in Silicon Valley and we'll have that connectivity across the US.

Absolutely.

That's right.

All right.

Well, gentlemen, well stated.

Maybe one more time with people at home.

Where can they go to learn more, either from an investment perspective or if they have an idea if they're a founder?

Earlyriders.com with an S not early rider that is actually children's bicycles.

I have an angle the other day that came in asking for a bicycle, you know, return and I and I had to respond because I didn't want his kids bicycle next year.

Yeah.

So early rider is an actual like trademark type of bicycle or tricycle, but we are early rider dot com with an S slash stables.

You can see there's an incredible video, a lot more information, a great kind of long form white paper explaining what we're working on.

And yeah, I would encourage anybody listening to really reach out if you have thoughts, feedback.

It's really encouraging to see week over week the folks that end up being clients or becoming in coming into the fun or just get involved in different respects.

So yeah, please reach out.

And even if in the current couple months doesn't make sense, we want to stay in touch because there's no shortage of exciting things we're working on.

Absolutely, Yeah, as Michael said, just stay tuned.

I mean, we're going to be breaking ground very soon.

This isn't going to be one of those things that we just announced and kind of let soak.

We're going to we're going to really sort of dig into this break ground and begin building this this wonderful program that.

We can't let soak because I sit there and I've already told my for like my kids get in a pony for his birthday so that's the first horse.

We already have chickens.

I'm glad you brought.

Because there's already chickens.

The ponies coming there will be, you have to eventually get cows, but that's probably next year.

So yeah, this shit's being built either way.

If anybody wants to come out to it, it will be the DVD.

But yeah, I mean, this is this is happening.

Yeah.

And then the last thing that I would mention is just anybody who thinks that they are on something but not quite or want a little bit of help, feel free to reach out to liam@earlyriders.com.

Like tell, tell me a little bit about your background, what idea you're thinking about and how you're working on it.

And we're, we're more than happy to kind of help help you and guide you in the right direction if it makes sense.

Or if you just need hide people because we do a real good job of getting people to just like leave, you know, the old matrix and come into the system.

So if you just are thinking about it, you're like, man, I want to call just to like, discuss and raise.

Myself, I'll leave the.

Matrix, I would I would encourage you to really think deeply about it because if you get it on the call, you're probably already two weeks in.

You know, I won't docks and Matty Ball game over here.

But you know, a few weeks ago he was working for one of the largest companies in the world and now he's sitting here and he's probably going to think about tonight.

What did he get himself in?

I feel fairly good.

I haven't steered the guys wrong so.

Meltdown is real.

Once you reach out, it really begins to begins to actualize.

So be careful what you do and certainly, certainly reach out.

Liam's a good resource, Michael and then Brian.

All these guys are are real builders.

Helps when the price goes up.

Brian reached out around 25K and his family probably thought what was he doing?

But you know, we sit at a cool $117,000, but nobody's tracking it.

And he.

Angled it against me that I'm over 100K guy.

Yeah.

That's my, that's my new title now.

Where's your Twitter?

Do you have a Twitter?

I do, yeah.

Matthew Arbol.

OK, I couldn't find you.

Earlier follow Matthew Arbol drop.

A follower and.

We will like and subscribe to the pod.

It's Bill.

Alright guys, for joining.

Thanks.

Alright, thanks, guys.

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