Family and friends, neighbors and, most of all, strangers.

Welcome to the Christian Chronicle Podcast.

We're bringing you the stories shaping Church of Christ congregations and members around the world.

I'm BT Irwin.

May what you are about to hear.

Bless you and honor God.

My roots are in the South.

My entire family, on both parents' sides, are from places like Alabama and Tennessee.

I grew up visiting extended family in Tennessee every year and I went to college and grad school in Arkansas and Texas, but I've lived almost my entire life in the Great Lakes region in the North, and here's what's weird about that.

Around Michigan, where I live, people hear me speak and assume that I'm from the south, and when I'm in the south, people hear me speak and assume I'm from the north, even though my entire family and my heritage is southern to this day, and it brings up feelings of wondering where I really fit.

To some in the North I seem too Southern and some in the South have not.

Let me forget that I am a quote Yankee.

This is an example of what it's like to be from a particular culture and place in the world but to live in a different one.

When you're present in one, it's hard to hold on to the other, and when you try to hold on to one, it may feel like it comes at the cost of the one where you're actually present.

This is the situation for many Church of Christ youth who are growing up in the United States but are of Latin American descent.

They are English speakers, but they attend churches and live in homes where Spanish remains the day-to-day language.

It's not that they don't love the culture and heritage from which they come.

It's that the outside, english-speaking world in which they live is what they know.

So, from day to day, they have to learn to live in the tension.

Life is hard enough on its own.

Living life in two worlds at the same time is even harder.

It is for these young Christians that Hovenus for Christ exists.

Hovenus for Christ is a camp for English-speaking Christian young people who are growing up in bilingual or Spanish-speaking congregations and homes.

In addition to making space for these Christians and their unique circumstances, hovindas raises money to provide scholarships for them to attend colleges and universities from the Church of Christ heritage.

The Christian Chronicle recently featured Hovindas for Christ when tragedy struck the ministry last December.

Juan Ramon Rubio, one of the founders, died in a car crash on his way home from a planning session for this year's camp at Abilene Christian University.

He was 32 years old, but, as Jesus says, a seed that falls to the ground will bear much fruit, and Hovenus for Christ is carrying on and growing.

This summer, a record 240 campers attended Hovenus for Christ, a testament to Rubio's hard work and love for young Christians growing up in bilingual spaces.

Today we have three of his good friends who are carrying on the work of Hovenus for Christ.

They are the current officers of the ministry's board.

Alonzo Rojo is youth minister with Robinson Avenue Iglesia de Cristo in Springdale, arkansas.

Kevin Rivera is youth and young adults minister with Lakeview Iglesia de Cristo in Gardale, arkansas.

Kevin Rivera is Youth and Young Adults Minister with Lakeview Iglesia de Cristo in Garland, texas.

And Yasmin Tabarez teaches children at Robinson Avenue Iglesia de Cristo.

And.

Yasmin Tabarez teaches children at Robinson Avenue Iglesia de Cristo in Springdale, arkansas.

Alonzo, kevin, yasmin, thank you for being with us today.

No, thank you for having us.

I'm excited to be here for this opportunity to share about Hovenus for Christ.

Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity.

Hovenus for Christ occupies a space, I reckon, most of our United States, because they were born here but growing up in bilingual or Spanish-speaking churches and homes.

What is life like for these young Christians, and what is Hovenus for Christ trying to do for and with them?

Yeah, just growing up in a bilingual household and bilingual church, you know the life is just.

You know, like any other person like has family or heritage from a different country, just jumping from one world to another, living, you know, in a spanned household and then, you know, jumping into, you know, when you go outside your house it's a different world in some sense.

And holiness for I think we have created a space where, even though we grew up in this country speaking English, maybe more so, or perhaps both languages, but more of this generation, english, it's more English dominant, and Holiness for Christ offers them that space where they can be who they are.

We can meet them where they're at.

They can be who they are.

We can meet them where they're at, and even if they don't know Spanish that well, they could come at this camp and worship in a language that they're comfortable with and not feel any perhaps shame or guilt for not knowing the language.

And one of the other things, too, is part of our mission as Prophets of Christ is promoting higher education.

That's why we have our camps at christian universities and we try to help them with some scholarship money as well to buy books or other things that they need, and so we want these kids to basically take over future and we're trying to prepare the next generation, and I know education is a huge part of that yeah, no, I agree with kevin, I think.

I think a lot of us live in the hyphen in the in between, like we're hispanic but might not speak spanish perfectly, but we're from america a lot of the times but don't look anglo and so like, like that can be a hard place to live in.

You change your backdrop depending on where you're at.

So I think Hovind is Kevin's right.

Hovind is just creating that space, that in between, for those kids that can have a place where they can be themselves, where we can talk about the Chankla, which is the sandal, and like I don't know if you know what that is, which is the sandal, and like I don't know if you know what that is.

That strikes fear into the, into kids when they hear it, like they get scared.

That's, it's like the belt, it's just a you know like.

Oh, yeah, you know.

So like, but like I wouldn't have to explain that they would understand what I'm talking about when I say la chancla.

So just little references like that.

Like we're creating a space where they can understand our references, understand where we're coming from.

It's just a space where we all have the same thing in common.

We live in that hyphen and we understand where they're coming from, and I think that's what Hovind is.

That's why it was created to fill that void.

That was there I think also like it's a safe space and like everyone kind of knows everyone, like truly, we started instagram for hovenest until this year, like a lot of our promotion was word of mouth, so it's like a lot of the kids just enjoy it that much that they're like they tell their friends, hey, come to here, come here, come here.

And we get over about 200 people just by kids doing that and it's just like, like what they said, it's just a safe place where they can be themselves, where you make connections, where you have connections from dallas, from houston, and then when you come together it's like you don't miss a second I'm trying to use my imagination to enter into this, this space, where, where y'all live and where Hoveness for Christ lives, and I'm going to do my best here.

This may be kind of crude, but my whole family on my dad's side of my mom's side are from the South, so Tennessee on my dad's side and my mom's side are from the South, so Tennessee, and I am the only person in my family doesn't live in the South.

So we're Southerners going back generations and I live in Michigan and so here in Michigan people hear me talk and they sometimes think oh, you're from the South, you're not from around here, even though I've lived up North pretty much my whole life, and then my family from the South.

They're always like so when are you moving back?

You know like when are you finally going to like come back where you belong?

And I'm like well, I'm very happy living in Michigan and the summers are not as hot, so I don't plan on coming back.

And so I know that's kind of a crude.

You know that doesn't quite get to what young people who are coming from Spanish speaking homes are going through.

I'm just trying to use my imagination to enter into a little bit of that tension there, that they might feel a little bit of that tension there, that they might feel am I, is my example just ridiculous, or does it?

Does it touch just a little bit on on what life is like?

I think it's pretty accurate, maybe just a little bit more extreme.

But even within the spanish world you know a lot, you know latin america, like within mexico, el salvador.

There's differences there, there's tension there.

So like you come to America and like we're thrown all into the same pot and so like.

We feel a lot of that tension, and so I think it's very accurate example of what it's like.

It's a sin to be jealous, right, but I'm a little bit jealous of people who can speak two languages, because I only speak one, and I'm especially jealous of people who can speak Spanish, because it's such a beautiful and elegant language and more people around me speak it now.

So when I imagine being a young person growing up in a bilingual church or home, that sounds amazing to me, and I'm sure that a lot of things about that are amazing.

But what I was getting at is what are some of the challenges that someone like me, who's like oh, it'd be amazing to be bilingual, or growing up in a bilingual space with a language like Spanish, just can't even imagine or I just wouldn't even know about.

And you used one example a second ago, what I would call like an inside joke, that some people get and other people wouldn't get.

But like there are the, there are the parts of life that just don't occur to people like me, because I'm not in the situation myself, and so I I wonder if there's any more that you could, you could share about that, for what I expect our audiences is probably a lot like me.

What I can think about is like when you're trying to say something in Spanish, but trying to, but you can only think of the English word, and you're like wait, like, like, like this, you know, and they're like no, you I don't know, know, because they want to hear it in spanish, and so like it's just like you know the word, or you know what you're trying to say, but it's not in the right language.

So it's like your mind is kind of stuck in the middle yeah, yeah, I gotta.

We had an event in our church and like a bible bowl type of thing, and the answer was the Philippians, but I was trying to say it in Spanish, which is pretty expensive, but then I ended up saying Filipinas, which is the Philippines.

I just arrived from the Philippines that day and like the mental juggle in my mind is just trying to answer it as quickly as possible as well, to get it again.

And so, yeah, it's me and Coach, based on that and like yeah, we kind of do that sometimes in the world of bilingual or Spanglish.

You know, we'll speak English and then throw in Spanish and throw in some, some English words.

But at the same time, one thing too is like you know, most of these kids like this kind of gets into that We'll just got them talking about.

Some of them are losing their Spanish speaking ability and because English has begun so pervasive in our language and even slips in into Spanish, you know, english is influencing our language as well.

And also like when we, when our abuelos, come to visit us, we go visit them in their home country.

There's that language and cultural barrier as well.

We're just so used to growing up here in a certain way, and you know when they're from the campo, you know from the country, like they speak really, really fast, and like you don't know Spanish that well, you're going to miss out on what they're saying.

You know there's a perhaps like an ongoing debate too, if we should have a bilingual church, and you know what does that actually mean a bilingual church, a bilingual church.

What does that actually mean A bilingual church?

Because at my church, our church service is in Spanish, but what I do is everything in English, and other churches are literally bilingual where they have everything in English and Spanish.

Another person on board serves he's a preacher at a bilingual church in Nixon, texas, an hour away from San Antonio.

I talked to him about that and he said that he could do it, but it's very exhausting.

Yeah, he's exhausted at the end of the sermon just because jumping back and forth from the language, it's an actual job too.

There are interpreters out there, and so when it comes to people wanting to do bilingual, if it works for the church, great.

It does take skill, it does take an art form to do it as well.

So it's not as simple as it sounds.

I think about how, even within Hispanic communities, we're Mexican, so we understand the language, the Spanish that we speak, but Kevin will sometimes say something he's Salvadorian and we're like.

What does that mean, kevin?

I think it's different types of Spanish too.

We had a guy from our church go preach at a church in El Salvador.

He's Mexican and he probably got half of his sermon.

It is a different way of how they speak and some of the things that he said it just went right over their heads.

Yeah.

We do have, believe it or not, a miscommunication as well, even though we're speaking the same language.

Yeah, y'all, minister, among young English-speaking Christians of Latin American descent who are growing up here in the United States.

Parents, grandparents, are immigrants and they're growing up in churches and homes that retain some of their Latin American culture and identity, especially their language.

But they're also the young people that you work with are assimilating to life in the United States, as you pointed out.

What are some of the big challenges or concerns that are top of mind these days for those young Christians?

I think, you know, we've created all these different events, different things they can go to, but sometimes when they go home, it doesn't look the same and it's all in Spanish, and a lot of these kids only speak English or their Spanish isn't the best, and what they're experiencing with us is not the same at home, and there's that fear that they'll go look elsewhere for that belonging, where they can worship in English and Spanish and still have that community, and I think that's a big challenge.

I think a lot of our Spanish churches are staying Spanish only and don't realize that we need to adapt to what the young people need, and that's a bilingual service that caters to our young people as well.

And so that's.

You know, one of my big fears is we're doing all this work, but at home are they being fed and are they growing Because and so I would say that's one of the biggest challenges.

Every church has its own challenge, that is, to what language and what language we use the best, and so I remember doing a survey when I got back to Texas in 2019, when I took over the youth group, and I had them answer questions.

If y'all want to have everything done in Spanish English bilingual you're neutral about it.

Basically, all of them said more English, or neutral maybe once in Spanish, but mainly all of them said English.

And it's not that they don't understand Spanish Most of them are bilingual but even with the bilingual kids, they can easily be tuned out of a sermon that is speaking only Because the people that are preaching in the pulpit bring a lot of their own heritage and culture.

That happened back in the day.

It does not represent who the kids are today and so they can't relate to that.

And I know the job of a preacher is, you can't make everyone happy, you can't communicate with every single body, maybe at different points when you're preaching.

But I think that's just, you know, one of the challenges too.

And also, you know, in my context, you know, and it speaks to the broader picture as well, we were just at Green Valley Youth Camp and the theme was consider the birds and the lilies.

You know, do not worry, you know it speaks to the great context of this generation of them being anxious.

You know, into the great context of this generation of them being anxious.

And when I got back to Texas, I never heard the pain of anxiety with these kids.

You know, when I was growing up I never dealt with that, and these kids are dealing with that so much, even suicidal thoughts, and providing for their families too.

If they have a single parent household, they want their kids to help out with.

You know, providing to sustain themselves, and everyone's different, but as a result, you know, they're always working, always trying to make that money they're they're, they're in the pursuit of money, more so than anything else, just so that they can sustain themselves.

And I know, you know, holding for Christ in these camps, that we do it gives them a break from the outside world and allow them to be who they are.

And you know, I think that's why when they that's why jr wanted to start this and spearhead this.

It was very good at meeting the whole one is where they're at and and we're just trying to do the same, but it is.

It is a lot, of, a lot of work that we do great things.

I can't but like a lot of the same how they're being fed at home too yeah you know, I think of my kids.

I'm married to, you know, somebody that's anglo, and so at home we speak english and my kids understand spanish, because we go to a spanish congregation and my moms only speak spanish, but they don't really speak it and what?

What they understand is minimal.

So, like, I think of my kids in the future how am I going to make sure that they're being fed?

And you know, I've been praying a lot about it and, like, do I need to talk to the leadership about?

There needs to be a shift, because my kids are not the only kids that don't understand Spanish.

I know kids in my youth group that don't and they just sit there and I don't want that.

You know, like I want them to grow, to want to grow, and so that it's it's the biggest challenges.

Are we providing, are we meeting these kids where they're at?

And you know, lord willing, a lot of churches will start to move that direction, but we'll see I think kevin was right about how jr would meet kids where they're at, and that's just adapting with the new generation, where it's like the reality of the new generation is that when their parents are born here, they speak.

Their parents already speak english and they're only learning english.

For example, how long was was talking about his kids and I think for me it's just like it's really like difficult to say that too, because then it's just like you want to meet them where they're at and we do.

Like I teach littles on at our church.

I teach from three-year-olds to six-year-olds and if I teach only in spanish, it's hard for them to understand for some of them, which is why I make my class bilingual and even if it takes a little bit longer, I just like I think about, like I need to.

They need to be learning this, they need to learn the knowledge, and even if it takes me a little bit longer, like the kids, like how do I explain it?

like when they keep growing up and they move up to other classes, they're not going to learn everything that they need to if I'm only teaching in spanish, because it's always about meeting them where they're at I like how y'all have talked about this, because to so many of us who are outsiders to the space you occupy, we may not have a way to imagine what it is like, but I think in the way that you've just described this, it presents it as something most of us are familiar with, which is a generational I don't want to say divide, but even in an English-speaking church that's always been an English-speaking church and Church of Christ folks are really familiar with this.

You'll have older generations that sing certain songs and maybe use certain translations of the Bible and speak in certain ways, and then you have younger generations that prefer different music and different translations of the Bible, and so there's a disconnect between older generations and younger generations.

And so I know a lot of congregations they're English-speaking congregations that are trying to figure out how do we meet the needs of everyone here, these different generations that are in our pews every week.

How do the older folks serve the younger folks and be considerate of the younger folks and what they need, and, at the same time, how do we teach our younger folks and be considerate of the younger folks and what they need and, at the same time, how do we teach our younger folks to be considerate of and thoughtful of the older folks and what they need.

And so I like the way you've described this, because I think the situation you described is familiar to a lot of people that care about the church and care about each other.

They just probably have never thought about it the way that y'all are experiencing it.

I think you're right.

It is a generational gap.

I think you know a lot of our parents that came over.

They are Hispanic, they're Mexican, they're also the Southern Indians, so their culture is so different than ours here.

And it is this like culture battle between the hispanics and generational battle.

And if we don't learn to adapt, be it anglo or be it whatever nationality you are, you will lose a generation if you're not catering to their needs.

That doesn't mean change the doctrine or anything like that.

It's just how you approach.

It is different and I see that's why Holiness for Christ was created.

There were so many events that were Spanish only, that were great, but there was a group of kids that stopped going because they didn't understand.

And so how do we reach those kids?

Oh, we can create something.

We can still have spanish only events but also have bilingual events, and we can still go to, you know, english or anglo events.

Let's I take a lot of my kids to anglo events.

Like I don't want to just get in this bubble.

We are the body of christ and there's many avenues where we can learn and grow.

At some point you've got to pass the keys to the next generation and the people that came to JR at the very beginning, where they came up with this idea.

What Alonzo was saying, there's all this Spanish event.

We're missing the need of most of these kids that want to have more.

They're just more English inclined and like they saw a need, and I think I'm not sure if all of them.

I don't know if you can speak on it, I'm not sure if all of them knew English, but they knew it's not going to take them, it's going to take somebody else to do it, and I'm not sure if it's being stubborn, prideful, prideful, but most of our respect is make it I don't know I'm using the correct word like doctrine or it's a sin if you move away from the language or from the culture and I think that's what Alonzo was saying we're going to miss out on how to serve these kids adequately, and if you're not equipped with it, that's totally fine.

But we could be honest with ourselves.

You know what I'm doing is not helping, and so that's why I'm saying how can we pass on the keys to the next generation?

And so the future of the Hispanic church is just going to look different in many different ways.

It's probably more bilingual, or English-inclined, and multi-ethnic multilingual.

Most of us are like a little married, a little married, a white girl, and so there's a lot of interracial marriages, and so which is after?

It's just what it is, you know.

And the church is no different.

If we're not trying to do something right now for them, they're just going to go off to different churches, and so that's why we have created all these other retreats, that's why we have created all these other camps, and so that if they want to go, that's fine, but we're doing what we can to serve you guys here, and so, especially with our young adult retreat it's nothing new we don't serve our young adults at all in our Hispanic churches, and so we decided to create an Atlanta just for young adults only, and so there's a lot of pieces to this, but in the future I think it's just going to look a tad bit different.

You know, I think when the Spanish churches really started popping off in the United States, there was that need of Spanish-speaking congregations.

You know there was a large influx of immigrants coming to America, so it made sense that they were Spanish only.

You know, and I think, where a lot of these congregations and maybe preachers and elderships have have missed the boat is we don't have a large influx, like we did, of immigrants coming that only need Spanish.

Our influx now is those people that came, had kids and those people are having kids, and that's the generation I think we're trying to reach and that's the generation that if we don't move we'll get lost.

But yeah, so I think it's just shifting and, like I said, filling that void.

I think that's our biggest thing.

If you want to call this episode anything, it's just called filling the void thank you, first guest to ever suggest the title for me.

I like that it's always so hard to title an episode.

You just made my job so easy.

That's funny, one of the things that I'm thinking about, because I'm almost 50, I feel like I'm 25.

I still feel like I'm young, but then things remind me that I'm not.

And I'm reaching that age now where I'm starting to feel that disconnect with the younger people in my church.

To feel that disconnect with the younger people in my church because I grew up in a certain church culture and we had music and we had language and we had traditions that I grew up in and I cherish those things and they mean a lot to me.

But then, in order to connect with and reach the younger people in our congregations, in our church, we have to let some of those things go to make room for new things, and that is a loss for me.

I'm starting to feel the loss.

I'm starting to feel the grief and the sadness of having to let go of things that are precious to me to make room for new things that are precious to the young people.

And I just don't know how aware we are sometimes of how that's really going on.

And what we do because human beings are really not rational creatures, we're desiring creatures and we rationalize our desires is we will bring in things like the Bible to rationalize our point of view, and so what you're describing here in your context, I think, really is familiar to so many people.

It's not a language thing, it's not going from Spanish to English speaking, letting go of some parts of, maybe, a culture that your parents or grandparents left behind in another country, be a culture that your parents or grandparents left behind in another country, but I think everyone listening to this who's been a part of a congregation for a long time can resonate with some of the things you're sharing here.

So thank you for opening our eyes.

I just want to riff with you on one final question here, and it's a long one, so forgive me.

I think it's a question that challenges a lot of apprentices and students of Jesus Christ who sojourn here in the United States these days.

On one hand, the kingdom of God is multicultural, multiethnic, multilingual, multinational.

I think most Church of Christ folks believe this.

So in our better moments we call for inclusion and unity, even if we're not so good at practicing it most of the time.

I believe most Church of Christ folks aspire to inclusion and unity on biblical grounds, but, on the other hand, I think most of us also believe that there is a place and time to come away and celebrate the particular cultures or what I'll call heritage groups among us.

For example, I think some of our listeners would agree it's a gift from God for a bunch of SEC football fans to gather for a tailgate party on a Saturday afternoon in October.

As a Big Ten guy from Ohio, I can appreciate SEC football fans, but I am not one of them and I don't fit in there except as a visitor.

So here's my point.

In theory, the Church of Christ can hold on to two things at the same time.

We can hold on to the vision of a multicultural, multi-ethnic, multilingual, multinational kingdom of God that draws all of humanity together as one, and we can hold on to the idea that there can be a place and time for cultures or heritage groups within that kingdom to gather and celebrate what they love about themselves.

But I don't know if we have figured out how to do both in the real life of the church in the world.

Hoveness for Christ, because it ministers with young Christians who are wholly English-speaking Americans and Holy Spanish-speaking Latin Americans, may have more practice than most of us at making space for both the plurality of the kingdom of God and the special cultures and peoples within it.

So I wonder if you can share with our very curious audience what you've learned about being the church in that space, because the rest of us would really like to know.

Well, I'm the same with you, bradley.

I'm not with the SEC.

I don't even know what that means.

It's college football.

I don't watch college football.

I could talk about the Champions League.

I could talk about La Liga Serie A.

You know what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about la liga.

You know what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about soccer, but you said you'd be a visit to that, and so I think that you know that's a good example of, you know, basically trying to bridge the gap right, trying to just fellowship with our brothers and sisters in christ that look different, that speak different.

And you know, talked about early on about, you know, bilingual churches, and you know my feeling towards that.

I even in our own Hispanic communities, we just speak differently, and it could be shown more of that difference if we try to force unity as well.

And so one of the best ways that we can at least bridge that gap is, you know, each one's culture coming together every now and then.

We have a quarterly bilingual service here and we bring our own dishes, you know, from our own country, and the angles just love it.

They just bring pizza.

No, I'm kidding, that's one of the way that that we can, we can, we can celebrate and just come together as one, and I think in the future, though, that can look more of how we want it, you know, just because it's going to look different and I think everyone's going to be speaking the same language too, or be worshiping the same language, and everything's going to be multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and so that in the future, I can, that can, we can literally see that in the meantime, little moments, little, you know, events that we can hold together.

We're going to celebrate one another and worship together and fellowship with one another.

Like you said, be a visitor on hospitality, you know we can be the host today, god can be the host another day, and so just you know having to bridge that gap, you know, every night of the year, you know, I think I've learned that, yes, we have many differences but there's one thing that unites us and that's our belief in Jesus Christ and who he is, and that he died for us and rose on the third day for us.

And you know, I think if when I go with to anglo events, like I don't really focus on I'm the only hispanic as much as I used to because those are my brothers in Christ, and when I go to Hoveness, like, I don't say like oh, these are all Hispanics that look and sound like me.

We're here to worship God, we're here to learn about God.

And, you know, be it that an Anglo-African American comes or anybody comes to Hoveness, like that's a brother in Christ.

And I loved it this year so much because my brother-in-law, he's Anglo and we were talking at dinner once about it and he's like I want to go, and then I told him come and he's like well, they understand me.

I was like, brother, we speak English and he was like, okay, and he came and he loved it, he didn't feel like an outsider, he taught about Christ and I think that's one of the most important things.

Yes, we can have these different events that are Spanish only English, only led by Anglos, led by Hispanics, and that's great.

We need those spaces, but we can also fellowship and always remember what brings us together, and if we were put that at the forefront, we'll be okay Even though we're separated in different buildings, even though we don't fellowship all the time, but when we do come together, that's the important part.

Who have we put our faith in and all these differences melt away.

I want to thank the three of you for for making time to to answer our questions today and work through some of this stuff with us, and I love the work you're doing.

We're gonna drop links in the show notes to your work and to the chronicles coverage and hope that people you know know there are people.

Let's see our podcasts.

I think 112 nations, all 50 states.

We have listeners in all of those.

So I love it when people Christians all over the world hear an episode like this and I love it when people over the United States hear an episode like this.

So thank you for speaking to all of them today.

Thank you for having us.

Thank you again, yeah, for this opportunity.

This was a blessing, this was an honor.

Thank you so much, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

It was great.

Alonzo, kevin and Yasmeen, thank you for exposing our audience to a part of our Christian family that we may not have known about before today.

It's been a pleasure listening to you and to our audience.

Our guest today asked me to share with you that if you know any young people who would benefit from Hovenus for Christ, or if you would want to know more so you can support the ministry yourself, please check them out at hovenusforchristcom.

That's J-O-V-E-N-E-S.

The number 4christcom.

We'll put a link in the show notes.

We hope that something you heard in this episode encouraged, enlightened or enriched you in some way.

If it did, thanks be to God and please pay it forward.

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Thank you.