Oh, yeah, hiding from Helen.

The notices couldn't have been that bad.

Don't worry, sweetheart.

If it flops, I can always get you a job as an understudy for my grandmother.

Thanks.

I've already turned down the part you're planning.

Larry's not that crazy.

You should know, honey.

You just came out of the nut house.

It was not a nut house.

They drummed you right out of Hollywood.

So you come crawling back to Broadway.

Well, Broadway doesn't go for booze and dope.

Now you get out of my way because I've got a man waiting for me.

That's a switch from the bags you're usually stuck with.

At least I never married one.

You take that back.

Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maeta.

And I'm Brad Tree, who's just the guy who likes movies.

We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's golden age.

We go behind the scenes and share our opinions too.

And of course, being the average guy, my opinions are the ones that matter.

As does your self-delusion.

Welcome to Going Hollywood.

Tony, we're already 30 minutes late starting, and I think the listeners are tired of me saying, Where are you?

What's the deal?

I'm doing some stretches, some lunges, I'm warming up.

Um podcast.

Well, we've we've we've got a brutal climb ahead of us.

What the hell are you talking about?

Oh, Brad, you're being obnoxious.

You know you have to climb Mount Everest to reach the Valley of the Dolls.

Well, and that's what we're doing today.

Yes, sir.

That was my very bad Barbara Parkins.

Oh my god.

Yes, yes.

We are going to climb Mount Everest today.

The Mount Everest of camp.

Because we are indeed, it's the day.

Today is finally the day.

I'm so happy.

Today is the day of Valley of the Dolls.

But before we go any further, we're having some technical difficulties, listener.

So Brad might sound a little bit like he's in a tunnel.

Just FYI.

Hopefully, it won't sound that bad.

I think it sounds okay on this end.

I've heard celebrities on podcasts that said they were crouched in a closet in the in the hotel room.

Uh, so hopefully at least sound better than some of them did.

I think you sound fine.

I think you sound fine.

But we are we are indeed uh today's the day for Valley of the Dolls.

It's our final air quote scary, silly movie uh this month, even though this will drop in November.

Um, so I'm very excited.

And this was a listener recommendation.

Uh unfortunately, we can't find the email.

Uh name.

I'm sorry, we're sorry.

I will see if I can find it in the future.

I think I have it packed away and and we'll get to it later.

I I can't find it for a reason.

Yes, yes.

If we yes, and we will mention it later.

So apologies, but thank you for the suggestion.

I have wanted to talk about Valley of the Dolls for over a year because, as I said, it truly is the Mount Everest of camp.

Because if Chinatown was a mountaintop of one type and Baby Jane was another, Valley of the Dolls is right up there.

Don't you think so, Brad?

Well, yes, I do.

I um let me tell you, I I rented this movie three times this past week.

Three times.

The first time I I you know I've got a lot going on, so I was very busy, and I was halfway watching it, and I finally stopped.

I'm like, you know, I'm not getting any of this.

This I can't do a show like this.

So I said, I'll watch it later.

And in Amazon, when you rent it, once you start it, you have to watch it what within 24 hours?

Because that's the only place I could find it.

So then I tried to watch it a second time, and it was it had nothing to do with the movie.

I was absolutely exhausted.

So I fell asleep in 15 minutes and ran uh the film ran in front of me, but I wasn't there.

So finally I ran it a third time and I got to watch it.

And you made your way through.

I made my way through.

Um, it wasn't as campy as I thought, but my god, there were some wonderful campy moments.

Oh wow, really?

It wasn't campy all the way through.

It wasn't non-stop camp.

Well, I don't know.

I don't know that any movies.

But I loved Patty Duke.

Oh my god.

Oh, yeah.

Well, we're gonna talk about Ms.

Duke, we're gonna talk about Anna Duke.

Um, you know, but we talked a little bit, we talked about camp when we did the bad seed, because this is kind of uh this is kind of uh a month of camp, I guess, is better than saying scary.

And how we said that we felt like the bad seed, the camp was intentional.

And most people agree the definition of camp is unintentional humor, not intentional humor.

Um, and that's certainly the case with Valley of the Dolls.

I mean, Barbara Parkins said many times that there was no intention of this being anything but a serious film, a bit shocking for its time, certainly, but definitely a serious film.

And somewhere along the line, the the train jumped the track, and this thing went barreled right into camp because I mean it's it's Vanity Fair uh did a celebration of it um uh for its 50th.

Uh and they interviewed Lee Grant, and Lee Grant was laughing and she said, I can't believe you want to talk about this piece of shit.

But Vanity Fair called it a beloved piece of shit, and it is, it is because of the unintentional humor.

What do you think that is?

What do you think what do you think makes it funny?

What is funny about Valley of the Dolls that we call it camp?

Well, first of all, if you had quizzed me, I would have said the bad seed was not supposed to be funny, but uh Valley of the Dolls was done uh as a farce to be funny, and uh because it is that bad.

Why what makes it campy?

Is that what you asked?

Yeah, what do you what do you think makes it campy?

Well, just with any camp, it's so over to the top and so melodramatic.

And uh, you know, I heard um I I don't think I've ever seen this film.

I really don't.

I I kept typing it.

Was this one of those times that I don't remember the film?

No, I'm almost certain I never saw this film.

In fact, I can tell you without a doubt, I've never seen this film.

Uh if I saw it, it was only clips.

And I knew about the wig in the toilet, and I kept waiting for that um because I caught a clip of you know the campiest scene is that.

And and uh I thought uh well that wasn't as campy as some of the things, but yeah, it's pretty it's pretty over the top.

I mean the the acting well, what can more can I say about that?

You have to think about we'll get into it.

We'll get into it.

We'll get into it.

We talked about before, it's it's hard to define camp.

I f I believe there's many reasons why this train went off the track.

Um, I think there's one of the reasons why it's camp, and more importantly, it's gay camp.

There's a reason why, if that's not redundant, that that the the gays love it because of the fact that it's campy, because of the many things.

The Travilla gowns, okay.

Um this it's it's the height of mid-60s fashion.

Now, William Trevilla is a very famous costume designer.

We talked about him earlier.

He designed the famous Marilyn Monroe Subway grading dress from Seven Year Itch.

So he's probably he designed the most famous costume, maybe arguably, in in movie history.

And Trevilla uh was fabulous at creating these over-the-top, luxurious gowns.

He wasn't so great at creating everyday wear, which you got to talk to Barbara Parkins about that because she was not happy with her beige outfits.

But um, so but that's one of the reasons why, because you've got this the over-the-top hairstyles of the 60s, you've got the over-the-top clothes of the 60s, yet you have this 1940s mentality.

This film has a very 1940s type plot when you really think about it.

And that's because that's when the book takes place.

The book starts in 45 and goes for two decades.

The movie takes place in the 60s, clearly.

Look at the hairstyles, look at the costumes, look at the this the environment.

But it's got a very 40s mentality, and I think that's another reason why it's camp.

You're fighting, you're you have two eras fighting against each other, and these things being these really 40s kind of like attitudes coming up against these 60s mores, it's very jarring.

I think that's another reason why it's camp, in my opinion.

Yeah, and when I read that this film cover the book covers 20-year span, whereas this film is just a few years, it seems like.

Uh I thought it would be better as a 20-year span.

Well, yeah, because there's no, it happened all happen so fast.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

It's like there's no, you don't really get the time to understand what's going on with these people.

Neely's a climb, Neely's ascent to the top happens so fast.

You know, she gets, you know, Susan, Susan Hayward ties a can to her tail and she's out of that show.

And next thing you know, she does a little montage, she sings a she sings a song on a telethon.

She's a star.

Yeah, it's immediate.

You don't get the struggle.

You also don't get the sense of her unraveling.

Suddenly, she's just a dope fiend, suddenly she's just a drug addict.

You know, it there's no progression in it.

And I think that's what's also makes it camp, is there's just no sense to it.

Yeah.

While the rest of them just stand around.

I found the passage of time really difficult because it seemed like Anne had just gotten there, got her job with this uh attorney, and started working with the celebrity circuit.

And things were just beginning, and she meets um Lionberg, who becomes her love interest, and then it seemed like it was the next night, and she's telling them about all the times that she came to this bar.

So there obviously had been a passage of time, and I'm like, well, we should have had a montage of I mean they later we got montages.

We got a lot of montages, exactly, a lot of fun montages, talk about camp.

And I'm like, why didn't they do a montage there?

Because I was totally, I'm like, wait a minute.

I was really confused until I figured out we've had a passage of time with nothing telling us they had a passage of time other than having to piece it together.

And then she's immediately the Jillian girl.

It's like boom, boom, boom.

Now you're a Jillian girl.

I'm sorry, you're a secretary.

No, you're a Jillian girl, you're doing fabulous high fashion commercials, and then you're addicted to dolls.

You're just right.

We want a we don't want a model, we want something plastic beauty.

It's so funny.

Well, and then the another reason that I also think it's camp is because wait a minute, it's a musical.

Hold on, hold on a minute.

I always, always, always forget it's a musical because the songs are so memorable.

Not God.

I'm gonna take out the theme of Valley of the Dolls out of this because that actually is a beautiful song.

And I think it's one of the reasons why this movie's lasted because of that haunting theme.

But come on.

I mean, it's probably a good thing we don't remember it because who doesn't leave this movie humming, come live with me?

Or the lyrical it's impossible, and not the pericomo, it's impossible, another one, but of course, my favorite is that greatest of great gangway world get off of my runway anthems, I'll plant my own tree.

What the fuck does that mean?

Where are you planting your tree on the side side of Mount Olympus?

I mean, it's just crazy.

Well, you know, the whole D W Dion Warwick song, it reminded me so much of Breakfast of Tiffany's because we both love the theme song for Breakfast Tiffany's.

I still love it.

I love and adore that film.

But by the end of the film, you're like, okay, we've heard the song.

Let's move, you know, we're done with this song.

And that's the way I felt about I'm like, oh god, here she comes again.

Starting with different lyrics.

She's always trying to get off, she's always trying to get off that damn merry-go-round, but it's all kinds of different attitudes, and now where is she?

Well, no, the song is haunting, it's lyrical, it's beautiful.

Andre Prevan and Dory Prevan, who wrote all the songs, and Dion Warwick does the ultimate version.

I've heard there are so many versions of the song.

Katie Lang does a gorgeous, gorgeous rendition of the song uh on one of her albums.

But you know, it's funny because that song is in culture.

Now, I just recently, ironically or not, I don't know how this happened, but I just happened to start binging uh Nurse Jackie.

Have you ever watched Nurse Jackie?

No, it's Edie Edie Falco's show about uh drug addicted nurse.

It's a comedy, it was on Showtime.

Um I I binged it the past few weeks.

Ironically, well, I'm thinking about Valley of the Dolls because they're both about they're both addicted to dolls.

And Nurse Jackie, the series begins and ends with two different versions of the theme from Valley of the Dolls because it's all about drug addiction.

So this it's funny because this song just has seeped itself into the culture, and I think it's a good reason why this movie continues to uh seep into this culture also because of that song.

So, all these reasons, for all these reasons, this movie, which is over 50 years old, is still fascinating to people.

People are fascinated, obsessed with this film.

It's crazy, a very bad film.

Well, let me tell you what I loved most about this film, and I actually I I also think it's where they did a downfall.

The opening montage of all the drugs and the pills, that actually was uh kind of disturbing for me.

Um but um so it then cut to Anne in her small town telling people she's moving to New York, and she's doing the narration, and you see uh this innocent uh young lady, and uh you know, I she's leaving her kind of sort of fiance and her family and going to and it was a very nice narration.

And what really bothered me was because they did that whole um uh opening with all the drugs and you know all that kind of stuff.

Even though I knew this was a tragic story, the whole time I'm watching, I'm like, this is kind of fun because I know you know I know it's gonna go somewhere, but I knew too much at that point because of the way they opened it, that it was gonna go not just bad, but really bad.

And I thought that was a missed opportunity on their part.

I knew too much because of what they did.

Well, Lawrenceville will be there forever, Brad.

Yes, to go out and experience new things.

I love that opening.

Um, so how are we gonna approach this?

Because this, again, another one of these, I don't mind when our episodes go long because when it's important, and these this show has the potential of being really long.

So I think that I think we should talk about just a brief background about the book and how the book was received and how it came to 20th Century Fox.

Do we want to do that and just give the briefest of backgrounds because there's so much to talk about with this movie, and I don't want to go off on tangents about Jackie Suzanne, although she's a fascinating, fascinating broad.

Um can we do you want to do it that way?

Just a brief background of the book and how the movie came about from the book.

Uh yeah, I do want to hear that because I know the very little you're gonna be doing most of the talking on this one.

Um, should we talk about what the movie's about, or should we just go straight to the book and then talk about?

Um, yeah, please.

You you do that though.

You give you give the plot synopsis of this opus, please.

Okay, I'll do a very simple one.

It's about three ambitious women.

We have Ann, Neely, and Jennifer, and they are played by Barbara Parkins, Patty Duke, and Sharon Tate.

And they navigate the glamour and the heartbreak of show business.

And um fame is not good for them.

Uh, it brings addiction, betrayal, tragedy, um, a lot of cheating going on.

Um in the end, and choose independence over her love, which will I know that's a big twist from the book.

Uh Neely, basically Patty Duke, uh, spirals herself out of control because of drugs, and then we have a very sad ending for um uh Jennifer.

Sharon Tate's character, uh Jennifer.

And uh so the there's lots of stress and despair and longing to be a star, and uh in the end, that uh the only one that turns out well is Anne, and that's because she turned her back on it all.

She does, which is different from the book.

Yes, it is, which we're gonna yes, yes.

So that's pretty much it.

Yeah, it's you know, it's about these three another three women, another three women.

Fox loved stories of three women, a letter of the three wives.

Love, I mean, it's the same kind of thing.

Fox loved the trip the threes.

And before you go on, I'm gonna give one very, very super quick synopsis.

Yeah, this is from Roger Ebert.

He said this film is a dirty soap opera.

It is, it is.

He he trashed it and then he wrote the sequel.

Roger Ebert wrote Beyond the Valley of the Dolls.

So I didn't know that.

Yeah, he did, he did.

After he trashes it, then he writes the sequel.

Uh, we'll get to the reviews, but yes, to uh to almost every one of them, of course, just decimated this film.

So that's yeah, that's pretty much the idea.

And the book kind of follows the same thing.

The basic bones of the book are the same.

So Jacqueline Suzanne was a semi-successful actress who never really achieved the kind of fame she wanted.

She got some work, but she never reached that level of fame.

But she was in the show business world in the 40s and 50s and 60s, and she was very immersed in it.

She was also married to Irving Mansfield, who was a publicity agent.

So she had also had access to all these people.

She was personal friends and some say lovers with Ethel Merman.

And that relationship came to the point where it got almost a little psychotic on Jackie and Suzanne's part.

Um she knew Joan Crawford, she knew Betty Davis.

She just she was in the world.

And what Valley of the Dolls, after her the success of her first book, which was called Every Night Josephine, uh, she wrote in 1963, which was about her dog.

Um, she began writing an expose of Showbiz and the people that she knew in Showbiz, and she called it Valley of the Dolls.

And for people who don't know, dolls is slang for pills.

So when we say she grabs the dolls, we mean the pills.

Um, but also dolls is also slang for women, so it kind of serves a double purpose there.

And I always thought it was just about I pictured women in the valley.

Um I pictured at night.

Well, Chris, I'm getting the whole Sharon's uh um charente image, which is not what I mean to do.

I have never heard dolls used for pills.

I was really surprised.

It was a very 60s term for uppers for downers, you know.

It wasn't it wasn't, I don't think it was in the lexicon.

Uh outside of a certain social Hollywood showbiz New York social settings, I think of what it was.

They called them dolls, slang for dolls.

But it also works for girls, I think, because we're talking about three women here, and well, four if you're gonna count Helen Lawson.

So there were four protagonists, really, four if you want to say this, and she what was really uh galvanizing, what what people got really excited about is Suzanne based them on recognizable people, on real people.

Brad just talked about uh the main characters.

We have Anne, who is the cool, efficient, suffering wasp.

Somebody said nobody has suffered so well in Mink since Betty Davis, and no wasp has suffered so well in mink since Betty Davis, and it's true.

Um, and many people believe that she was kind of modeled on Jacqueline Suzanne herself, and a little bit on Grace Kelly, who Suzanne knew from growing up in Philadelphia with her.

We have Neely, Neely O'Hara, the upstart, the big-eyed, incredibly talented upstart who'd been born in a trunk.

There's a hint for you, and someone who had a well-known addiction to pills, and who also may have had a gay husband or two.

So I don't know if I need to really spell it out for you, but I will.

Judy Garland.

Nobody did that.

Shock.

Shocking, shocking.

Nobody even disputed that.

They're like, this is Judy Garland.

From the description in the book, Jennifer, Jennifer North, the tragic and beautiful blonde, known more for her body than for her talent.

Now, who do you think that could possibly be based on, Brad?

No, oh, I'm gonna well, known more for her body than her talent.

I'm gonna say Marilyn.

Very yes.

Many people cite Marilyn Monroe.

However, there was a 40s blonde bombshell named Carol Landis, who had a similar reputation.

She was known as the ping girl.

She was also known as the chest.

Can you believe that?

God, who tragically died by suicide in 1948.

So that's also up for debate.

If it's it's a little Marilyn and a little Carol Landis.

And of course, we got Helen Lawson, the Barracuda, diva-like, ball-breaking First Lady of Broadway.

Who do you think that is based on, Brad?

That is when I was betting my head against the wall, trying to figure out who it is.

Is it supposed to be Ethel?

Of course.

Yeah.

Okay, yes.

Okay.

First Lady of Broadway.

Because Suzanne allegedly had a relationship with her.

I mean, it's yeah, it's it's speculation.

It's speculation.

So anyway, so that's what made this film, this one, that's what made this book such a furor.

People were going crazy.

This book, I mean, to say it was a success is a huge understatement.

It was the it was the biggest book of 1966.

And by 2016 estimates, it said to have sold over 31 million copies.

Now, this is despite negative and dismissive reviews.

I mean, it's despite it.

It was on the New York Times bestseller list for 28 consecutive weeks at number one.

Number one for 28 weeks.

And it was on the list for 65 weeks in total.

And in 1974, it was in the Guinness Book of World Records listed as the best-selling novel of all time.

Behind the Bible, well, it's not a novel.

The Bible's well, the Bible's arguments about the Bible.

The Bible's number one selling book of all time.

Right.

But this was the number one selling novel of all time.

And then Harry Potter happened.

And but still, it's still up there.

I mean, it's still huge, huge.

It was a huge, huge book.

And you know, if it's gonna be a huge, huge book, you can guarantee there's a movie coming along.

Yep.

And that's what happened.

That's what happened.

Let me tell you the most tragic thing in this movie.

Oh, please do.

It's also the most ironic thing in this movie.

Uh, I only knew Sharon Tate from uh Beverly Hill Bellies.

She was on the earliest season, she was one of the secretaries.

Uh, one of the only secretaries that had a few more lines uh before all of a sudden they all vanished and it was only Ms.

Jane Hathaway.

But um in a black wig, by the way.

You recognized her in a black wig.

Yes, yes, in the black wig.

So I I that's the only thing I remembered ever seeing her in.

So I'm sitting here watching this movie and I'm thinking, okay, she is playing this character who is talentless.

How ironic that I'm watching a person who's talentless.

Oh, I don't know about it.

But maybe it was her role, maybe it was the role, but I'm like, this is awful.

You know, out of all of them, Sharon Tate probably came off the best out of all of the actresses.

But we'll we'll get to that because I don't I don't agree with you in that.

I think there's an angelic quality that Sharon Tate has, which which makes Jennifer just it adds another layer to Jennifer, but we will get to that.

We will get to that.

Um, so 20th Century Fox actually bought the rights to the book before it was published.

Way to go, 20th Century Fox.

Very, very smart because they heard rumors.

And here's the thing: at this point in 20th Century Fox, they had made the sound of music, so they were rolling in the dough again.

You know, Cleopatra was over, they'd done 20, they had done uh sound of music.

Richard Zanek was now running the studio, son of Daryl Zanek.

And 20th Century Fox had done a film in 1957 based on another problematic, scandalous book named Peyton Place.

Peyton Place was a tremendous success.

Not only a financial success, it got seven Oscar nominations.

So it was a critical and financial success made from uh allegedly unfilmable book because of the scandalous nature of and it was directed by none other than the director of Valley of the Dolls, Mark Robeson.

Now we're gonna talk about that and Mark Robeson, and there's lots of ties to Peyton Place and to Valley of the Dolls.

Well, I just want to say that because they had the template of Peyton Place, they knew they could make this into a saleable movie.

And that's what they did.

They bought the rights to it, and it went into production.

It went into production in the in the mid-60s.

And what's interesting about the Peyton Place connection, too, is not only do we have Mark Robson who directed Peyton Place, we have two of the stars of the TV show, Peyton Place, in this movie.

This was also the time of Peyton Place, the TV show, which was the biggest thing on television.

I think it aired three times a week.

Can you imagine that?

Three times a week.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know Ryan was in that.

Yes, he was in it.

And Mia was in it.

We talked about it with Mia Farrow last year when we talked about Rosemary's baby.

She played Allison.

Everybody thought Mia Farrow was going to be the breakout star from Peyton Place, and she was, but the real breakout star from Peyton Place was Barbara Parkins.

That's what really you have to remember this because when you look at the ads for Valley of the Dolls, Barbara Parkins gets top billing.

Barbara Parkins was first on the call sheet.

Okay, you have an Oscar winner.

Patty Duke had won an Oscar already, yet Barbara Parkins gets top billing because she was so famous because of Peyton Place.

She was in people's homes three times a week.

So um, so Peyton Place and Luke was also in Peyton Place.

So there's another star.

So we had two stars who are in the TV show of Peyton Place who are in this film, and you have the director of Peyton Place.

So this film was really modeled to be like Peyton Place and be a huge financial and critical success.

And somewhere along the line, they missed the mark.

Well, it was a financial success.

It was a huge financial success.

But so uh the little bit of the differences with the book and the film, um, and what we were talking about earlier.

As we said, the the book starts in 1945 and it runs over two decades.

And this is a major problem with the film because it's a 40s story set in the 60s.

And the idea that Neely can become a huge star doing the kind of musicals they did in the 40s, hello, Judy Garland, is laughable.

It wasn't happening anymore.

So that you have a real problem there.

Also in the book, um, as we said, the time frame is much longer.

And at the end of the book, Anne and Lion are married.

At the end of the book, and Anne is using those dolls to numb herself over Lion's affairs.

So it is very different.

And we know in the end of the movie, Anne famously, another reason why people laugh at this film, walks into the, I don't know, three feet of snow, four feet of snow in her flats.

She leaves Lion behind at her house.

It's her house.

Why is she leaving when she gives Lion the brush off?

Well, because she wasn't furious with him.

She wasn't, she just tells them it's time for them to move on.

But it would have a different ending.

It would have a whole different ending if she threw him out.

Why wouldn't she?

Why wouldn't she open the door and say goodbye?

Well, because this is her wandering off in her thoughts.

Then put some boots on, girl.

She climbed, she's climbing in those snow drifts in flats, and then she's grabbing that stick.

The first stick wasn't good enough, then she grabs another stick.

We're getting to the end of the movie.

I don't want to get to the end of the movie yet, but it's just it's so funny.

Another reason why this movie is funny is camp because of because of choices like this, because of Mark Robeson, the director, he is to blame for almost every single way this film went off track.

So I want to talk about the the casting because the casting is the big thing with Valley of the Dolls.

But I just want to give an overview about how exactly this all came down.

Mark Robeson, Fred Zinneman was originally supposed to direct, and they thought, hey, why don't they get the director of Peyton Place?

Because this film's like Peyton Place.

And so he was set to direct.

They had a bunch of screenwriters.

Um, originally it was written Harlan Ellison, um, who the producer.

Was would hope give it a like a contemporary and hip uh effect to the story, but he succeeded too much and it went way off track.

So they brought a much more um they said his his finished script was filthy, so he was taken off and he was replaced by much more run-of-the-mill screenwriters, Helen Deutsch and Dorothy Kingsley.

And the movie went into production.

But here was the big thing, here was the big thing: the casting.

The casting of these women.

Because as we said, this book was the biggest thing in the world.

And when they found out it was going to be a movie, you better believe every single actress in Hollywood was either considered for it or wanted it.

And I just want to go over some of the choices for that were either told they were that was either advertised they were cast or it's either advertised that they wanted to be cast or they wanted to be in it.

I'll like to go over that, but before we do that, we have to talk about the ruby slippers in the room.

Because another reason why Valley of the Dolls is Are you referring to Judy?

What gave it away?

Another reason why Valley of the Dolls is so legendary is because, yes, the original choice, not only the original choice, the woman who was hired to play Helen Lawson, the ball busting Barracuda, first lady of Broadway, was indeed Judy Garland.

It's probably one of the greatest what-ifs in Hollywood history.

And I want you to think about this for a minute, okay?

So we've already established that the character of Neely O'Hara was based on Judy Garland.

Helen Lawson is based on Ethel Merman.

So here's what's crazy Judy Gwo of the last belters.

The last of the big Beltas.

Um Judy Garland is playing in a film opposite a character who is based on her.

She's basically playing Ethel Merman, playing in a film with a character who is based on Judy Garland.

And do you know who Jacqueline Suzanne wanted to play Neely?

Her first choice was?

Oh um.

Think about it for a minute.

Um, I know Mia was for was considered for something.

No, I don't know.

Liza Manelli.

Okay.

Oh, see, I almost said that, but it just seems so absurd.

I mean, this whole thing would have been a if this had happened, it would have been one of the most surreal movies ever.

Exactly.

You have Judy Garland's daughter playing a character based on Judy Garland opposite her mother, Judy Garland, playing a character based on Ethel Merman.

Folks, I can't top that.

That's it.

Thanks for listening.

Bye, everybody.

It's mind boggling.

It's mind-boggling.

Talk about missed opportunities.

I mean, it's just, it's, yeah, it's it's but anyway, it's it's safe to say that the casting of this film was Hollywood had not seen anything of the casting of the film since the casting of Scarlett O'Hara, since the search for Scarlet.

Okay.

So I'm just going to give you the characters' names and some of the care the actresses who were either up for it or who either expressed interest in it or was said in the press that they were interested in it, and then we'll be really quick about it.

So Anne Wells, the main character, uh the based on Jacqueline Suzanne herself, uh, the actress was very close to playing who they really wanted to play Anne Wells was Candace Bergen.

Oh Candace Bergen was just beginning her film career.

She had some really early hits coming out, and she came very close.

They even did costume sketches of her as Anne, but she wasn't having any of it.

Um, a couple of the other actresses who were named to possibly be play Anne were Natalie Wood, but Natalie Wood wanted to play Neely.

Almost all these actresses, almost all of these actresses wanted to play Nealy.

It's so funny.

They're like, well, we see you as Anne.

No, but we I want to play Neely.

Um Julie Christie and Faye Dunaway.

They were also bandied about.

And we all know that Barbara Parkins ended up with Anne.

Jennifer North, the character based on Marilyn Monroe, but also Carol Andis.

So most famously, Raquel Welsh, she came closer than anybody else.

She was almost signed, but at the last minute, she said no.

Now, Raquel Welsh, when you think about the character of Jennifer, the body, Raquel Welsh really is kind of perfect for her.

I didn't know this, and I'm thinking she would have been perfect in this role.

Yes, she's actually much closer to the Jennifer in the book.

Sharon Tate, as we said before, in my opinion, brings an angelic kind of otherworldly quality to it.

That might also be hindsight from what we know what happened to Sharon Tate.

Yeah.

But I don't, I don't, I don't think so, though.

I I think there's a softness to Sharon Tate, there's a genuineness to Sharon Tate, a vulnerability to Sharon Tate that I love Raquel Welsh.

She doesn't have it.

She doesn't have it.

She is much more Jennifer as Jennifer is in the book, the body, the one without talent, as she says.

She's just a body.

She's doing her bust exercises all the time.

So she was very close.

Uh, they also talked about Tina Louise, but they thought she was too old.

Poor Tina Louise.

What was she?

32?

I mean, come on.

Yeah, and that would have been a hard uh, you know, uh, maybe Gilligan's Island wasn't stuck in people's heads the way it was later when it went into mass syndication, but uh that one I have a real hard time with.

Yeah.

Um, unless they really wanted to go for camp.

Ursula Andress, who apparently who just made a splash in Dr.

No, and who Suzanne apparently didn't realize was dubbed in Dr.

No, so she would have been dubbed.

And here's one Jane Fonda.

They thought of Jane Fonda for Jennifer because this was almost Barbarella time.

So think about Jane Fonda's image in the mid-60s.

So kind of makes sense, but Jane wasn't.

She was also offered Neely, and she's like, I'm not doing any of this shit.

And here it is.

Here's the big one: Mary Tyler Moore.

Can you imagine?

Oh my god.

Uh yeah, that'd be crazy.

That'd be crazy.

Laura Petri gone bad.

Okay, so here's the big one, and I'm gonna go through this quickly because I there's just a lot, but Neely, Neely O'Hara, everybody wanted to play Neely.

Neely was by far the meediest role in this story.

Think about it.

She's a drug-addicted superstar, and she runs the gamut of emotions throughout this entire story.

Some of the actresses who expressed interest, and some of these are really funny.

Uh, Tuesday Weld and Margaret, who I think would have been brilliant, Shirley McLean, Liza, as we said, Debbie Reynolds, who at 34 had just played the singing nun, but she wanted to change her image.

So I'll play a drug-addicted superstar because I just played a nun.

Um, Lee Remick, Patula Clark, Elizabeth Hartman, Marlo Thomas.

Oh, I did hear that one, and Andy Warhol superstar, baby Jane Holzer.

But the biggest catch of all, the one that everybody from Suzanne Tzanick to David Weisbart, who was one another producer, to Mark Robson wanted most of all, was can you guess who this might be, Brad?

Barbara.

Yes.

Oh, they wanted Barbara because when you look at the character of Nealie O'Hara, aside from the Judy Garland similarities, think about it.

Super singing superstar comes out of nowhere, a quirky, awkward girl.

Barbara would have been the most ideal casting for Neely.

If this was a different movie, yeah, Barbara would have been perfect.

Because she is Nealie, she was not the personality of Neely O'Hara, but the qualities of Neely that made her a superstar.

So when you're saying a different movie, you mean if it was done well.

Yeah, a good movie.

If it had been a good movie, Barbara would have, yeah.

Barb Barbara's perfect casting for this.

I mean, if it had been a different film.

Um, but Barbara was pregnant when this happened with Jason, and she was doing Funny Girl in London, but but her but Marty Ehrlichman like was like, this is not, no, this is not what we want Barbara in.

I mean, they had a very they had a plan for launching Barbara Streisand's film career, and it was not in Valley of the Dolls.

So that was just not going to happen.

But everybody desperately wanted her.

So for Helen Lawson, based on Ethel Merman, we had Suzanne's first choice and someone who really, really lobbied for the role, Betty Davis, who obviously would have had to have been dubbed, even though she probably wouldn't think she had to be dubbed, she would have had to have been dubbed, but would have been amazing.

Um, Rita Hayworth, Barbara Hutton, and can you guess who I'm gonna say?

Here it comes.

It's your Lucy moment, yes, Lucille Ball.

She would have been an astounding Helen, in my opinion.

She would have been awesome, yes.

Um, she, you know, like the Manchurian candidate, you know.

I don't think that this would have sat very well with her general foods public.

But I don't know.

What do you think?

I mean, playing a ball-rusting Broadway diva or an incestuous communist mother, which would be better for her career?

Who knows?

I think well, I think she could have done the uh this movie had uh the Lucy show not been still playing.

It would have been a very interesting choice.

It would have been a very, very Or is it here's Lucy?

Which one was the second one?

It was the it was the Lucy show.

It was a Lucy show.

Okay.

Uh the Lucy show was winding down though.

But but Lucy wanted the part built up, she wanted more more meat on it, and it didn't happen for one reason or another.

And then, of course, came the choice, Judy.

Um, because think about this for a minute.

So we have we have, and this is what Patty Duke said, and that the producers, the directors were never really serious about Judy, that it was all a big publicity stunt.

Because despite what we know about Judy's life, she's nothing like Helen Lawson.

Now, Judy was a brilliant actress.

I'm not saying she could not have played it, however, inherently ball busting, you know, uh diva.

No, that's not who Judy Garland was.

But Judy Garland was at the point in her life, this is one of the lowest points of her life.

She just lost her house.

She was basically unhoused.

You know, she was doing her hotel thing, going from hotel to hotel and not paying her bill and you know, putting all her clothes on and walking out.

Um, she was a real low point, and she needed the job.

So, according to many people, the speculation is, and I want to be your opinion on this, the reason, obviously, for the publicity and the pedigree that you have a star the caliber of Judy Garland cast in this, playing in this scandalous book, it's one thing, but you're also kind of insuring yourself from a lawsuit.

Because if you have a character based on Judy Garland and she's drug addicted and she's screaming and yelling, and she's just a nightmare, you know, what do you do to ensure there's not a lawsuit?

Well, maybe you cast Judy Garland in the movie, so there's no so it nullifies it.

What do you think about what do you think about that that theory?

I don't know if it holds water.

No, um, because you know the movie that I always think of uh when it comes to portrayals is um the Greek Tycoon.

Because that movie put you know the usual this was not uh uh based on any character reel or or imagined blah blah blah.

And people would laugh hysterically because clearly it was Jackie Onassus and and uh do I have the movie right?

Onassis and Jackie Kennedy, yeah, Greek, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it was so clear as day, they put that up there and and they get away with it.

I think that was so commonly done, I don't believe that story.

Yeah, it's it seems like a lot to go through.

I think they did it, I think they did it, it was definitely a publisher a publicity boon.

Definitely a publicity boon.

Um, I you know I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Um, but I tell you, it's an interesting take.

Um, knowing what happened with Judy uh during the filming, you kind of can see the writing on the wall because as everybody knows who's seen this movie, Judy Garland ain't in Valley of the Dolls.

She didn't, she does not make it, but she was cast.

She there was a big publicity.

There was a press conference with Jackie Suzanne.

So it was happening.

It was big, and everybody was excited because you have this legend who you're going to work with.

Um, the only other character I can think of that talked about is Miriam Polar, uh, who um plays Tony Poehler's sister, the one who has to go heat up the lasagna played by Lee Grant.

Um, some of the thoughts of that were Lee Remick again.

Carolyn Jones was almost signed, but she couldn't get her scheduling.

Colin Dewhurst, Angela Lansbury, Arlene Heckert again, and Maureen Stapleton.

And as far as the men, who cares?

I mean, really.

Yeah.

Yeah, really.

Uh this movie ain't about the men, the dopes.

No, you got the dolls and the dopes.

This movie ain't about the dopes.

And it's funny because Jacqueline Suzanne had these ideas about Cary Grant and Frank Sinatra and Paul Newman, and they're all like, huh?

Excuse us, excuse us, you know, because who's the men were props in this film?

They were total props.

And you know, Tony Polar, who plays the tragic singer that Jennifer North falls in love with, played by Tony Scotty, his one and only film acting job.

He was in, he was out.

One, done.

Uh what an odd storyline.

I'm I'm guessing there was more to it in the book.

There was, but he's there, and next thing you know, he has a disease and and he's never seen again except to sing a song.

Well, he was kind of based on uh, you know, the the lounge the loungy groovy singer was based on, of course, Dean Martin.

You see Dean Martin when you see him, and also Bobby Darren in the fact that he had a tragic health issue that shortened his life.

So that was the idea with that.

But yeah, and the rest of them, Lion and uh Ted Casablanca.

I mean, Paul Burke was a TV actor, he was doing Naked City, so he was well known, but there's nothing to these characters, they're just they're they're they're mannequins, they're mannequins.

So the idea that she thought she could get Cary Grant or Kirk Douglas is just like wow.

I I know I thought the Ted Casablanca character could have been very interesting.

Um, and they're first of all, it was the first movie I ever heard that that's old that they dropped the F-bomb, and I'm not talking about fuck that they dropped the F-bomb right and left.

I was really surprised by that.

Not offended, but uh surprised.

The um Martin Milner.

Yeah, I kind of that guy's kind of cute.

What is he from?

And it drove me crazy until later I read that he was from Adam 12.

Was it Adam 12 or divergence?

One of those.

But again, I'm I saw him, I'm like, oh, I like this guy, and nothing ever happened to him.

Yeah, I mean, who cares about these men?

Yep, yeah.

It's you know, it's just who cares?

Who cares?

We we watched this Valley of the Dolls, not Valley of the Dopes.

Nobody cares, even though dolls are pills, dolls are also women.

So who was cast?

We had Barbara Parkins, as we just said, Peyton Place, big in Peyton Place, the biggest thing on television at this time.

And it's funny because um she was under contract at 20th Century Fox, and she kept seeing all these women coming in and reading for this new huge movie with all this buzz.

And she's like, Hey, hi, I'm kind of the biggest star on the lot right now.

Everybody knows Betty Anderson.

She actually went to Richard Zanek's office and demanded the screen test for Valley of the Dolls.

Oh, and she threatened, she said she was, she said she wasn't gonna go back to Peyton Place today.

She said she put the today in really quickly.

So she goes, I'm not going back to Peyton Place today, um, if I don't get it.

And she did, but you know what she wanted to be again?

She screen tested for Neely.

These actresses wanted to play Neely.

She originally, and she would have been a really interesting if the if the Nealie O'Hare character was like Joan Crawford, she would have been a great Nealie because her screen test is actually really good.

But she did something very funny in the in the screen test.

She um she pulled a uh Elaine Stretch because Neely has the line um I'm a big star.

And and Barbara Parkins says, I'm a big fucking star.

I knew you were gonna say that.

I knew that you were gonna say that.

You know, I liked her in this role.

I I um what caught me is I thought she was gorgeous in the beginning, and then when she became a glamorous, and it's it's probably because of the whole 60s styles, I found her very unattractive.

But you know, it's kind of like I watched the sets.

The sets were amazing, and the whole time I'm like, thank god that era is over.

Yeah, um I think she she looked the role at that period, but it just I I just found it uh I I there's nothing about that look, the hair.

It's fun, fun to look back on, but not uh it it was hard for me to see it uh in today's world as looking glamorous.

Well, she would have she would have been.

It looked like it is, it looked drugged out and skanky.

She was gonna be, she'd be an interesting, an interesting Neely, but she was offered the role of Anne because they said to her, you know, Neely is sandpaper, you're velvet.

We need you as Anne.

And she she assigned it because Anne was I can see that the part of Ann is so different from from Betty Anderson.

So she's like, okay, I'll do it.

All right.

Um, we talked about Raquel Welsh.

Uh, the part of Jennifer went to Sharon Tate, who as Brad said, you know, did bid parts around.

She was under contract to a company called Filmways, which produced the Barely Hillbook.

This has been a Filmways presentation.

Presentation darling.

So she's always she was always doing uh her she with the guy who ran Filmways, a guy named Martin Ransahoff, was pretty much her mentor and guiding her along.

And this was the next big thing.

She was she had done some lower budget movies in Europe, one of which with a director named Roman Polanski, the Fearless Vampire Killers.

Uh, she began an affair with him.

And about this time is when she got all this new publicity about this exciting new sex symbol.

And when Raquel Welsh hesitated to sign, they called in Tate for a screen test, and she got the part.

She is her screen test is so wonderful.

This is the thing.

These actresses all gave amazing screen tests because Mark Robeson didn't direct screen tests.

So many of their screen tests are nuanced and subtle and beautiful.

And then when they filmed it, they're off the charts.

Um, but everybody to a person in that set spoke of what a lovely, angelic young woman Sharon Tate was.

They all loved her.

And finally, we have Patty Duke.

Now, I don't want to go too deeply into the background of Patty Duke because if you do want to know about Patty Duke, she's a wonderful book called Call Me Anna for her whole tragic, triumphant story of dealing with her bipolar disorder and her life with her managers when she was a kid and the miracle worker.

We all know she won an Oscar for the Miracle Worker.

And this was her first job after the Patty Duke show ended.

And if you think about it, you know, her managers basically treated her like MGM treated Judy Garland.

Her managers were just as abusive with the pills and the controlling of her life.

So she knew this life.

She knew this story, and she was also had the mental instability she was discovering of a young Judy Garland.

And she had just finished playing three years on the iconic Patty Duke show, which one of my favorite shows when I was a kid.

And she wanted to establish herself as an adult, you know, because she was always a kid.

She was a kid and the miracle worker.

Then she was a kid, the teenager playing Patty Duke.

So she's like, I want a role to make me an adult.

And she decided to do that in one fell swoop with Nealie O'Hara.

Because there's like, Wow, yeah, there ain't no going back once you've once you've played Nealie O'Hara.

I mean, it's just uh she took care of that.

Um, but it was a struggle.

And I love Patty Duke.

I uh obviously I have a huge respect for her for coming out about mental illness way before that was uh acceptable to do so.

And she is the one, and I think she's a good actress, but in this movie, she is the one that made it feel like this was supposed to be camp.

Well, yeah, her her rages and everything were just oh my god, they weren't over the top, they were above and beyond anything I've seen before.

And I just every time she's on the screen, I'd laugh in a good way.

Yes, well, it's just yeah, I I tell you, it's it's it's so unfortunate because she just wasn't directed.

She wasn't Mark Robson wanted everything balls to the wall, and we'll we'll we'll talk about that when we talk about uh the production.

But you know, so these are these are your three main leads, and I said Lee Grant playing uh Miriam.

Um, and then we have Judy playing Helen Lawson.

So, you know, Judy hadn't made a film in in five years, so she was incredibly nervous.

And from what, you know, and I'm just gonna shorthand this um because we want to talk about the movie too.

From everything I've read and everything I've heard, instead of the background of the movie, um, you know, she was not treated well.

She would Robson would, because of her reputation for being late and being causing problems, Robeson would call her at 6:30 a.m.

call and then keep her waiting until almost three.

And you don't do that to Judy Garland because Judy Garland has too many people hanging around her who are going to keep her occupied, if you know what I mean.

Um, going to take care of her.

You also don't do that to somebody who hasn't made a film in five years, to this legend, and then not escort her on the set.

He would send an A D to get her.

You're very nervous.

You haven't worked in five years, you don't know if you can do this.

It's very scary.

Andrew Judy Garland, you need some comfort.

You need to be, you you need to be treated like the legend.

They hired her because she was a legend, because of the pedigree.

And then he proceeded to treat her like crap.

Um, so that's one angle of it.

And you know, Patty Duke very famously called Mark Robson the meanest son of a bitch she ever knew in her life.

Um, and from from everything, from the way he treated Judy, you can kind of see that.

And I see, I don't know that as they said, it was it a publicity stunt, was it a publicity stunt?

I think she had every intention of of completing this because she needed the money very badly.

But I don't think at this point in her life, I mean, she died two years later, that she really had the strength and the energy to be able to do it.

And that's what's really sad because she began to falter.

She just couldn't pull it together.

Her life was unraveling.

And unfortunately, this was a product of it being fired from Valley of the Dolls.

That is very sad.

Yeah, I guess she worked for 10 days, and out of 10 days of work, they had a minute and a half of usable footage.

Um, so she was.

She was very famously fired.

They were all stunned because she had filmed these scenes.

Um, they were all stunned about it, they didn't know what they were going to do.

So when they were deciding what they are going to do with this, um, and now this is funny.

Patty Duke actually said later on, she goes, I realized that Judy was the one who got off easy.

She got out, and the rest of us were stuck in this turkey.

And as I said during our Judy Garland show episodes, Judy Garland, being Judy Garland, took the wardrobe.

But Trevia actually gave it to her because Judy would wear it later in her later concert.

She'd come out in the pantsuit that Helen wears in the famous uh bathroom scene.

Uh, so we gave it to her.

But there's a very funny story that Judy um Judy said during one of her concerts in '68, she said, Did you all see that movie that came out?

That horrible movie.

What's it called?

Valley of the Hoo-Ha.

So I like to think of Valley of the Dolls as Valley of the Hoo.

Okay, so we've talked about the production in the cast, which is we could go on for days about that, but I think we need to get into the movie.

Yeah, we do, we do.

I've been talking, talking, talking.

So production on this film began in February of 1967.

And um, most people, as I said before, most people lay the blame for the what happened to this movie at the feet of the director, Mark Robeson.

Um, and as I said, it's much it's interesting that all the actresses gave better screen tests than they actually were in the film.

Because you know, Mark Robeson wasn't John Waters.

He didn't, he had done Peyton Place, but he was better known for these macho films that he did, like Champion and Von Ryan's Express.

He was not the right man to handle these very complex characters.

Case in point, he used to walk, he used to stay around the set with a stopwatch.

He actually timed the actors.

Lee Grant said at one point he went up to her and asked her if she could make a three-minute scene into a two and a half minute scene.

Oh no.

Now you Lee Grant, method actress, you don't say that to any actor.

You he was an editor.

He was actually editing the film in his head as that's when he had the stopwatch.

That's why he was doing it.

He had no empathy for these actresses, for these characters.

Barbara Parkins said that he never talked to her about the effects of pills.

Never.

He was more interested in getting the shots of the pills, of the bright red pills, falling into the water, falling on the tray.

He never discussed with her what pills do to you.

She said, If us if I had a director like Martin Scorsese, he would have talked to me about what I was feeling, what I was experiencing.

So they all pretty much just play bad drunk when they're high on the pills.

You know, when she's stumbling around the beach and she falls in the water with the with the water coming in her mouth, it's like she's drunk.

She's not, he didn't, he didn't communicate that with her.

And he also treated them all very differently.

He was very detached with with Barbara Parkins, didn't really give her much direction.

She didn't know what she was doing, which is pretty much why she's always a mannequin.

She seems like a mannequin through this whole thing.

His idea was to make to try to get Sharon Tate to cry to get that vulnerability.

And she never gave it to him, but he was always haranguing her and haranguing her.

And with Patty Duke, he just screamed.

He just he and Patty Duke and Mark Robson had some of the most legendary clashes during the making of this screaming matches during the making of this film.

And you can see that's why she's so over the top.

That's why she screams everything because she's being directed that way.

She's being told, give it more, give it more, Patty, give it more.

This is not Patty Duke is an Oscar-winning actress.

This is not the way an Oscar-winning actress behaves.

You know, it's it's he really is the reason this film went off the rails.

He really is.

So when Judy dropped out, it was his idea to go to Susan Hayward.

He had worked with Susan Hayward before.

And this is what I like about Susan Hayward.

Um, she said she would only do it if Judy was paid her entire salary, which I think was really, really classy.

And she said isn't that cool?

And she said the only reason she was doing the movie was because of Mark Robson.

And she got$50,000 for four scenes and, of course, the special billing.

So now you have the cast together and they're all kind of combative and they're all coming at each other to create this film.

So, do we want to talk about some of the the campier scenes that happen in this film and some of the legendary campy scenes in this film?

I think that's a good place to start, and I'm gonna want you to lead the way on this.

All right, all right, we'll do it.

But it's gonna have to wait till next week because once again I talked too much and we ran out of time.

So we're gonna tackle part two of Valley of the Dolls, the continuing story of this saga next week.

But before we do that, before we go, Brad, I think you have something you want to say to the people.

Uh I will do it, and I'm gonna apologize to you, Tony.

Tony and I um had plans this week, but I have run out of time because exactly 24 hours and 15 minutes from now, I will be boarding a plane and leaving my life to move to Spain, packing everything we own in three suitcases.

So the point of all this is to let you know that next week I will be back talking about Valley of the Dolls, and I'm gonna be Karen Black and fly this plane solo.

Hmm.

I think I I think I'm up to it.

I think I'm up to it.

Send me in, coach.

I'm ready.

And then after that, uh for the next few weeks, I'm gonna have some great co-hosts joining me.

Of course, they won't be Brad, but they're good, they're fabulous people.

I'm excited about uh having them on the show.

Well, so yeah, that's what's happened.

That's what's happening.

I thought it was gonna be fine because we got all the red tape out the out of the way, and I'm like, okay, this is gonna be easy, no problem.

We have a lot of shit to go through.

So, and that is why I have to continue.

Uh, and I have I don't know how we're gonna do it in 24 hours, but if we don't do it, we're we're just going anyway.

So and then Brad can join us again from Espana.

So, Brad, I think I only have one thing left to say, but huh, this is so sad.

I don't want to say it.

Really don't want to say it this time.

So let's not say goodbye.

Let's really just say au revoir.

No, Tony.

Let's say buenos noches.

Oh, better, better, yes.

See you soon.

Bye, everybody.

That's all, folks.