Welcome back, my Marvel techno wizards, to another episode of The Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of The Cosmic Circus.

On today's episode, we're discussing the latest Marvel series to hit Disney+, Ironheart.

My name is Brian Kitson, head writer of The Cosmic Circus, and joining me today, as always, is Uday, and we have a return of one of our favorite podcasters, Isla.

How are we doing today, you two?

Hi.

I'm so excited to be here and be back with my friends.

We're so happy to have you back, and I'm doing great.

I am very excited to talk some Ironheart.

And before we jump in, though, spoiler warning, if you have not seen the six-episode series yet, please pause this episode and return once it casts its spell on you, and we will continue the conversation then.

So I just want to get—let's just jump right in.

Let's get this started.

Uda, I want to start with you.

General thoughts.

Why did Disney and Marvel drop this in two, three-hour batches?

Like, what are they thinking here?

I think it's a complex conversation.

I was actually at urgent care with my friend who got into a bad car accident this morning.

So while me and my other friends were waiting for her, we started talking about Ironheart, as one does.

And I said, you know, why is it that Disney Plus is seemingly burying its only two female of, I don't like calling women females, two women of color-led shows?

Why are they burying them?

Echo was dropped all at once.

Ironheart was dropped in just a two-week batch.

They haven't treated any other Disney Plus show like that, except for Andor.

Andor Season 2 got four three-episode batches.

And so I think it's an interesting conversation because are they trying to bury these shows and get them over with quickly?

Or are they trying to help them be seen as a success because they know that there's a vocal contingent against them, and so they want viewership numbers to back up the show and have it see be seen as a success because echo would not chart if it was dropped weekly i think we all know that and i don't know if ironheart would chart if it's if it was dropped weekly and if you look at the andor comparison i think season one struggled in the nielsen ratings but season two was consistently at the top and was even number one overall in its final week of release it would not see those kinds of numbers if it was one episode a week rather than three episodes a week so i don't know if it's burying the shows so much as making sure that there's some positive headlines that can come out of them because they know about the toxic fans.

What's interesting about that, and I want to share to you with this, is that I see I wonder and I question about like how it how they dropped this.

And obviously we're to get to the show as well.

But I feel like when you have something that has Ryan Coogler's name attached to it, that came from a very popular film of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Like, let's not forget, what kind of forever made bank during a time when we were still like there was like, yeah, we were open, but there were still restrictions.

People still weren't going to the movies and it still made quite a bit of money and they dropped it in a three chunk like two three chunk three hour chunks and that to me seemed shocking because we also didn't get the promo for it but we also just it felt like they were dropping it so i do think it's interesting what you're saying there uday but i kind of want to switch it to you and like what do you think what's kind of going on

Here so i'm so glad that you kind of drew the parallel to echo because i think you you can't ignore that and i think that there's one other factor that you can't ignore with this is that like I feel like the timeline is playing into it too because you know I had to go back and look when this was supposed to be in like the giant Marvel world and Marvel universe and I feel like that maybe is kind of why they're just shoving it to the side and kind of letting it be out there because I think that if you're not up on everything MCU maybe you'll be a little bit confused with like when this is supposed to be and maybe the show won't track as much for you yeah i.

Mean that makes sense

Yeah i say something yeah i was gonna say like that's a good point about the show like let's not forget ironheart had an extreme delay this series was supposed to premiere in i think it was originally even rumored for like fall 2023 or like early 2024 and then it got delayed till summer 2025 it was delayed almost two years from its suspected like original release window and i think that that one i think one it kind of hurt it by distancing it so much from wakanda forever right it's a it's a pseudo sequel that's coming out almost three years after the movie did but i also think that there was no good time to release it because the way the show ends like we are in the middle of 2025 and i feel like it's highly unlikely that marvel has any plans to follow up on this ending so how would we have felt about that if this ending happened in like 2023 or 2024.

You'd be waiting for it to be picked up in Agatha.

So...

I also, like, I feel like they might have just backed themselves into a corner and Ironheart is a casualty.

Like, the MCU is a mess.

They don't know what they're doing.

And Ironheart, whatever it was building towards, who knows where it is now.

And so I just, I feel like the shifting gears, like, on the corporate side kind of screwed over this show.

You know, just to look at the kind of the schedule of this, too, principal photography was wrapped on November 2022.

Like, you're thinking, like, this is, like, almost three years ago.

And I know that there was a lot of talk about, you know, insiders are saying that the story wasn't good.

People weren't connecting with it.

It was boring.

I also wonder if a lot of it was that they wanted to get the CGI right on this one because they had been pushing out so many projects so quickly.

And this was a very CGI-heavy project.

But I do agree with you.

there just seemed to be a little bit of a of a casualty of the show of it just not knowing what to do with it and i know we're going to talk a little bit about the future in a little bit especially because alex perez put out an article recently talking about damnation and what's coming but it does leave a lot to kind of the imagination of what happened behind the scenes that this show was filmed three years ago and it's just now coming i

Think it's a shame too because there's a lot of good stuff in the show and you know i know we'll get to it but there's a lot of really interesting like ethical questions there's a lot of like cool tech things i mean the show i i don't think the show is bad i really enjoyed it you know i didn't do the the three and three release i kind of just streamed it all at once because i just wanted to see it which maybe that's a whole other discussion on release strategy too but you know there's there's good stuff in it.

Speaking of that good stuff though i you know this does kind of continue right off of wakanda forever into to what is Riri Williams' own story.

What did you think of the continuation from Wakanda Forever, getting introduced to that character, and then, you know, kind of this hero in her own right storyline?

See, that brings it back to the timeline again.

It's been so long since I watched Wakanda Forever that, like, I knew that I loved Riri, but I just couldn't remember why I loved her.

And I'm, you know, I'm supposed to be up on all the Marvel stuff, so, you know...

Which is fair.

We're

Not like Uday

Who watches Wakanda Forever.

I'm sure every single night he's going to bed.

I was going to say, this is my time to shine.

I don't watch it every night.

I have a friend that watches across the Spider-Verse once a week, every week.

I don't even do that with anything.

Do they log it on Letterboxd?

That's the real question.

I don't log my movies, neither does my friend.

I just log when I've seen it for the first time.

I rate it, but I don't do movie logs.

Maybe I should.

but I've seen Wakanda forever like at least 12 times like it has to be I've six of those were within four weeks in the theater right so I love Wakanda forever it is my favorite Marvel movie I think it is the best Marvel movie which I know is a controversial opinion but it shouldn't be and I don't know I feel like I liked Riri and Wakanda forever I really liked her in Ironheart I think that Riri is the most morally complex and interesting protagonist the MCU has had since Shuri in Black Panther Wakanda Forever.

And I loved Shuri's arc in that movie because it was so, to me, it was so refreshing because Shuri was so vengeful.

And to me with Riri, it's so refreshing that she is so selfish.

Like, I love that.

Because even characters like Doctor Strange and Tony Stark that are selfish, I don't know, it's not hitting the same way.

Like, Riri is doing, like, Doctor Strange was selfish and he drove recklessly and he insulted his ex-girlfriend, right?

And he just acted like he was the greatest person ever, right?

Before he was humbled.

What I like about Riri is that she's just very, I feel like, self-absorbed.

She's not really projecting her greatness onto other people.

She's just internalizing it.

And that, to me, is very interesting because I did not get that from her in Wakanda forever.

Do you think she was selfish before the grief and before, you know, Gary died and Natalie died?

Or did the selfishness, was it a response to, you know, the horrible things?

That's a good question.

And I think that it was a response to what happened.

And I think that in some ways, the selfishness feels at odds with her character in Wakanda Forever.

But I think if you really look at it, I just don't think we had the time with her in Wakanda Forever to see those like facets of her personality, right?

She was out of her depth with what was going on with Namor.

She was caught up in someone else's family drama and so she was able to just like support shuri in the way that she needed right and and i don't know i think it's really interesting the more i think about it it's like i don't know i feel like there's a lot to talk about here because when you think about the grief that she went through with her stepdad and her best friend and then she meets shuri who's grieving a brother and then honestly riri is the reason that shuri's mother is assassinated i feel like i feel like we almost didn't get enough connection in the iron heart show because that's so juicy knowing what she went through in iron heart and i wish we saw some of how she related to shuri with that there's

Like sorry there's like barely any wakanda forever mention right there was you know her her internship like some vibranium mentions but it seemed like we really get anything else that happened.

Yeah i i agree with that like a big problem i've had with the mcu in recent years is that it feels like it's missing easy opportunities for connection that's something i've talked about a lot and ironheart is a curious case because i feel like it did follow up on a bunch of things but then i also feel like there's some stuff it didn't follow up on like the fact that she built a vibranium detecting machine and like i feel like her genius was being recognized in wakanda forever and then as soon as she's expelled from MIT in this show it's like no one could care less about her and I kind of feel like that's unrealistic like you'd think that some Tony Stark type out there would know about her like the government knows about her you know like how was she able to just go home to Chicago and no one give a shit about her you

Know I do want to go back real quick to the grief because I'm really glad that you brought that up I loved the journey of grief that we got in all of the Ryan Coogler projects in the MCU specifically starting with Black Panther was dealing with the grief of losing his father shuri was dealing with the grief of losing her brother and in this one we got the like we got a different take i feel like t'challa took a very noble approach to it even though there was a little bit of anger there was a little bit of upsetness he took it the like the i need to be the leader i have to fight for my people shuri definitely went the route of you know of what do you what are you motivated by when you've lost somebody and like but you still have to hold like you still have to hold a certain level of like regalness or you have to have like a, like a, like a purpose.

Yeah.

And really what I loved about her is that she was motivated by pure grief and like a, what happens when a child loses somebody, but they don't have anything holding them down.

Like truly in this one, she had her mother, but she was so motivated by the loss of her stepdad and her, and Natalie.

And like, and seeing that play out to me was, I think, almost beautiful that this, this theme of like, what happens when you lose your best friend and you bring them back on accident.

And like, I

Like the parts where you got to see her really have a conflict with that.

Like when Natalie's brother sees Natalie for the first time, and it's just like the, I can't believe you did this.

And it's not even computing to her because a lot of the times people think that like, you know, when you are super intelligent, sometimes you can logically understand that.

Your way out of an emotional response but she can't because we're all human and we can't logic our way out of emotional responses she just wanted her best friend back which is this connecting narrative throughout ironheart sorry i got on a soapbox a little bit there what do you what did you think of the grief isla i

Think that you know i go back and forth because she's you know she's struggling through this whole series with with how she's i think with how she's reacting in a way like she she asks at one point and I forget who she asks if if they think she's a good person does she ask favor that and I think that shows like there's some part of her that's aware that she's you know she's having a hard time she's she's suffering and I think her mom asks her a bunch of times like are you okay is is kind of a check-in and I just I love how how complex that all is how her reaction you know she like you mentioned she doesn't take the necessarily noble response she doesn't take the response of you know having to be like regal for for her people she's just kind of in pain and we're seeing her kind of being in pain but there's still that like little nugget of her wanting to keep her family safe or like you know the little watch and the shield thing she makes her her mom wear and you know that question at the very end where she's speaking with Mephisto and she wants to know if he just wants her.

I think that kind of some sums it up beautifully.

That scene to me is a standout of the entire show for the, I knew it was going to happen and I actually watched it with my family and my nephew became really upset about that, that scene where, where Natalie comes back and she had shaken, well, we assume she's shaking the hand, but you don't actually see it happen.

I don't think.

Right.

But like, she's reaching towards it.

And he was mad and he's like, I can't believe she would do that.

And I looked at him and I said, When you've lost somebody that is so close to you, the logical answer isn't always there.

To her, it was just the, if it's just me, if I'm the only one you want, that's worth getting my friend back.

And to me, that scene, while it was very tragic, was absolutely the most, that was the scene that I would re-watch this every single time just to get to that moment.

I just think that's so beautiful.

I definitely agree with that I think that I don't know I do think Riri's grief was interesting because Shuri is a fairly young character I don't think people in the MCU have strictly defined ages but I'm pretty sure they said that she was like 17 in the first Black Panther movie so she's gotta be very early 20s and she sure and that's still a young that's a very young age actually to go through losing your entire freaking family in the span of like three years for her and you're right like the way that Shuri dealt with that like she had a little bit of that almost like kind of childlike behavior in terms of like the anger but like she's obviously not a child she's much more mature because she's a princess and she's been through the loss of her father already and so yeah seeing riri and especially seeing the way that she was like pushing away her mom i really liked the conversation between the two of them in episode four and how her mom was telling her that she can't like bury all of her problems in an iron man suit but then how riri was so angry because she just didn't want to talk about what happened to her stepdad which is extremely unhealthy and I did really like the dynamic between her and her mom because you can tell that they're close but then you can also kind of tell that they're holding each other at arm's length And so it was an interesting dynamic to me.

I kind of wish we got more of it.

Kind of like the, I love you, but I also want to protect you.

And the only way to protect you in this situation is to keep you so far away enough from me that I won't damage you.

Because she did internalize a lot of that.

She blamed herself for them dying when it wasn't really even her fault.

But that's what happens when somebody goes through survivor's guilt.

I agree.

But then I also think it's interesting because I don't feel like it was just that.

I feel like it was very much that Riri loved her dad more than her mom and and it was her stepdad which I think is also interesting because usually I feel like in media like the step parents are portrayed as like the villains right and they're like who you don't want around and they're like messing up your family and so not only to have that loving relationship but then to have that dynamic it was stuff her mom was saying it was where she was like you could always talk to Gary but you couldn't talk to me.

And so I feel like Riri obviously loves her mom, but I just think she was like a daddy's girl, right?

Like she loved her dad.

She went to him with her problems.

They had the shared love of like the tinkering and the machines.

And so I think like she obviously loves her mom and is trying to protect her, but I don't think that's the only reason they have distance.

I think it's also that she just can't relate to her in the same way.

And that's a nice dynamic to have in the MCU.

It's like, it's new.

Definitely agree with that.

But speaking of, you know, the MCU, and we're kind of connecting this with the bigger picture, this did almost feel disjointed, as you both mentioned, because I'm thinking in my head, like, there was no reference, again, timeline, when this was supposed to come out.

No reference to Animantean, which I feel like would have been a really big thing here that people would have been talking about.

But we got Madripoor.

We did get Madripoor.

Does this fit into the larger narrative or do you feel like this is more like how they're trying to make those shows?

Like they mentioned, like, you can watch Daredevil and it's just going to be Daredevil.

Like, do you still feel like this is, I guess, like, where do you kind of feel like, Isla, it falls into like the necessary viewing, essential viewing or like the connectiveness of the MCU?

I really want it to be necessary viewing, but I don't think it is.

I think it's kind of a deeper cut for fans and for people who just really love Marvel.

I think that you could easily go on and watch, you know, Fantastic Four or the next movies after that without having watched Ironheart.

I think where it will become more of maybe a required viewing is if we see Mephisto later.

If we see that character pop up, we might, you know, folks might want to go back and revisit that.

You know, in that vein, you know, you talked about like essential viewing.

It made me think of back to when we were supposed to have armor wars.

And I was like, this would have been the perfect lead out of Armor Wars.

Like, I felt like this is like, this was sandwiched between projects that just almost didn't come to fruition.

Or like, again, we're not going to see for another five or 10 years, because I do think magic's going to come back.

Or even with WandaVision, and I get that, like, some work, because there's such the magic tie-in and so much there.

I almost wanted, Uday, I feel like you will appreciate this too.

At the end of the show, I was like, I just want a tag of the show where it's Death being so angry that Natalie's back and that Mephisto is messing with what is her natural order.

Because we just got a whole show where she was super mad about people playing games with Death.

But, sorry, go ahead.

Nope, you go ahead.

I was gonna say but I wonder if she'd be okay with that because there's gotta be people like Mephisto who have this power because isn't Ghost Rider's whole thing also that like Johnny was like dying and like the spirit of vengeance offered that he could live if like he let him possess him I only know Ghost Rider from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

But like that's what the situation was with Robbie and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

And so I feel like the fact that there are these entities that can do that I don't know if death would be pissed because we don't know what Mephisto wants from Riri but she did say like oh it's only you that I want right and like her arm was like being taken over by like the same kind of magic energy that Parker had and so I wonder if death wouldn't care because Mephisto is basically just doing a trade Mephisto is doing like I'm putting Natalie back on earth but like I've got Riri now and so because it deals for the deal with the devil usually takes your soul right so maybe death wouldn't be mad because Mephisto is like don't worry you're going to have Riri in like a year I just want to like mess around a little bit first see

This is where I feel like Marvel has in some ways broken their promise to fans because I think Marvel before it got like so many things happening with it you could have expected there to be a follow-up you would have expected to see you know Auburn Plaza be really angry as death but now like maybe we'll never see any anything happening ever again and we'll just have to be okay with that.

Yeah, I, I agree with that about like the promise to fans being broken because I was living for the end of Ironheart.

I was like, this is so freaking juicy.

I did not think they were going to go there.

And, and honestly, like, and a little, little tangent, but just at the end, like, I never expected her to take Mephisto's deal.

Even after everything she'd gone through, I think I thought that she was going to say no.

And I realized it was the real Natalie, like at the end, like very quickly.

Touches her head even before that it's like you can tell she's not the ai the expression on her face and she was wearing the same outfit from when she died i'm like i'm like that's the real natalie i'm like that's definitely not the ai but i thought that mephisto had done it against riri's will to trap her i thought that like riri was going to reject his deal keep working on bringing the ai back and then he like put her there like as a message to riri that like i'm not done with you and like you can't like ignore me and so I was really shocked when Riri presumably again took the deal we don't actually see her shake the hand but with the magic on her arm I think it's pretty obvious she took it but yeah I have no faith it's going to be followed up on at all and I loved that ending but I'm just like okay like let's move on it like to me the ending of Ironheart is like the ending of any like series or movie or anything that's been canceled right it's like it's like the ending of amazing spider-man 2 it's like you're never going to see what happens after peter hits the rhino

You really think that you're

Not going to see this ever again?

I don't think that there's a follow-up for this in the cards, because there's Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Doomsday, and Secret Wars, and then we're moving into X-Men.

And I don't think Armor Wars is ever happening.

I honestly don't think Blade is going to happen.

And the other thing is, do I care?

How much more time can I wait?

How much more of myself, of my time and attention, can I give to Marvel when this is how they're treating us as fans?

I still love Marvel.

I'm still going to watch everything they put out, but I'm not following every bit of rumor anymore.

I'm not watching every single trailer.

And for a fan like me to lose that connection is devastating.

So I still probably will watch everything in the MCU, but there is no faith in the brass at Marvel that they're ever going to follow up on this.

That's where i am too i kind of i i used to follow the rumors as like that's how i ended up here and follow everything that was going on and now i'm just kind of like well why i'm still very salty over you know moon night and numerous other things but i kind of want to jump onto one thing you said uday about you not expecting that she would actually take the deal with mephisto, i'm like a giant conspiracy theorist and i think that like mephisto engineered this all like he engineered the brain scan and it like to be natalie as the ai and all this so i think he was pulling the strings all along but that's just a tangent well.

I think going on to that i want to jump on that real quick too i also agree because i think that it'd take a step further i think that his whole plan of getting with the hood was to get to riri i think that there was a chain of events here he had a plan and why he's so set on riri i'm not quite sure yet and this is where i think that the story is not done because I don't think that the hood was his last.

I think it was just a stepping stone to get to who we really wanted.

He's orchestrated it all from this point on.

And from that post-credits scene too, is the hood really done?

Is Parker really done?

Do we have any faith in that?

That really surprised me, the end credit scene with him because again, I'm like, with everything the MCU has going on, I'm like, we don't need to see him again.

I'm like, his story done.

Pack it up, move on.

he was a fine villain he was okay i didn't really care about him but like for a six episode iron heart show i'm like that's fine like moving on it's like how many how many things are we going to have you know it's like that aren't going to get followed up on and

But it but it's essential for the time that they filmed it because they were going to do and i from what i understand they still are maybe but to do the strange academy and they wanted him in that and

Like, there was a thread there,

But I gotta be honest, like, I question, I question that decision.

Like, first of all, I question the decision to leave the scene in when there is no Strange Academy show in development.

I know it's been rumored, but, like, it's not even rumored to be in development, right?

Like, the latest rumor from a week ago was that they're still thinking about maybe making it and Nova.

And so I'm like,

No, so the rumor was actually they don't know if they're going to make it now into a TV show or a movie.

It's bouncing around both now it's back on the table and I think that they put that credit in there for that reason alone because they could have easily taken that out maybe yeah I guess

It's a question of faith because I read that credit scene as you should have taken it out because you're not planning to make a show but it sounds like you're reading it as they left it in because they are ready to commit to making a Strange Academy thing and I don't like I definitely be interested in seeing that but even just at the most basic level I'm like with a strange academy show why would you put the hood in it I don't know his comic history right but I'm like we have Zelma who I think is an exciting character I really liked the actress and her mom

Get her mom in there

Love her we have America Chavez at Kamar Taj we have Wong right who needs redemption after his terrible arc in Multiverse of Madness some

Supreme help right.

Yes we need that green Minotaur guy that everyone was excited for or Rintra and Multiverse of Madness that never got any screen time.

I'm like, there are enough characters already to do Strange Academy show.

I'm like, why do you need the hood in there too?

Like, not every character can have like so many appearances.

Like, there's just too many characters.

I don't need more hood.

Pack it up.

Let them go.

You think they're just keeping their options open?

You know, they'll see whatever, you know, trends higher, and then we're going to go with that.

Yeah.

I think it really boils down to,

And then I think this goes into the conversation of magic versus tech, is that I think that they were trying, I think ever since they made WandaVision, they have been trying to find their Agatha for a different show.

They've been trying to find that, what's that one character that's going to shock people so much that they're going to fall in love with, and then we can make an own spinoff about it.

And I think that they thought that was going to be the hood.

They're like, oh, everyone's going to love him.

He's Anthony Ramos.

like everyone's they weren't expecting the his scandal they weren't expecting people to fall off from him they were expecting the failure of transformers and they're like oh no what do we do because so much life has passed since they filmed iron heart we

Might know what his scandal is i'm so behind i'll look it.

Up he was he was filming a movie with a person and cheated on his fiance who's from hamilton and it was like a big thing but anyways i i do think that what's interesting And it dawned on me as we're talking of maybe why they split it, like another reason why they could have split it.

Maybe I'm splitting hairs here.

But when you think about the fact that they've really taglined the show Magic vs.

Tech, if you look at the first three episodes, it is a tech show.

And it's the last three episodes that become the magic show.

And like really like lean into that and we start to get heavy into the magic and stuff like that.

What do we think of that duality of like technology into magic and then blending the two?

Because I think that was a really cool aspect as well.

I like that Riri is willing to embrace that when she asks Zelma and company to kind of infuse her suit with a little bit of magic.

She just sees it as kind of another tool, another thing to use in her arsenal.

She's not against it.

She's kind of like...

It's just something she's willing to use.

And there's like foreshadowing of that too, right?

When her mom's friend offers her crystals, like that's kind of layered in from that very first episode through the whole series.

Well, I really liked that about Riri, but just right off the bat, the concept of magic persistent technology, I freaking love it.

My two favorite Marvel characters in order are Scarlet Witch and Iron Man, okay?

So to give me an Iron Man suit with red magic, I'm like, take my freaking money.

Like, I'm so mad that we don't have Lego minifigures of the Ironheart suits from this show, okay?

Not yet.

Yeah, I need to like, I need to call them up and be like, hey, where are they?

But I do like what you're saying about Riri.

Like, she fully embraced the magic.

She was like, all right, like, we're doing magic.

Like, get me some.

I need to be on that level.

And I feel like that's kind of how you have to be.

Like, tech is an ever-evolving landscape, as we're seeing with AI, right?

And you need to be willing to embrace new trends.

And so Riri just embraced the new trend of magic.

And I also think that that really sets her apart from the other geniuses in the MCU.

When you look at Tony, when you look at Bruce, and when you look at Shuri, all three of them are extremely scientific and extremely averse to the other stuff.

Like tony like looks at dr strange like he's insane and insults him right bruce ends up on an alien planet and he's like what what the hell is this like get me out of here into what i know and shuri was always very resistant to the spiritual side of wakanda which is which is also even more interesting because they grew up with that like she grew up with the same traditions as t'challa but in wakanda forever it's like she took the herb just because she thought it would plus her physical strength she did not believe for a second about like the spiritual and mystical side of it.

And so I really think it sets Riri apart from those characters that she is open and willing and ready to embrace that.

I mean, I'm just going to echo what you guys are saying because it's true.

I think this is one of the first times we really saw that embraced because I do, you look back at the characters, they are very set in their ways.

They are like, I am nothing but technology.

Or I even go back to when Thor is just like, you know, magic is just science, like advanced science that like you don't understand.

And here we're at a point where there's somebody saying, I have an advanced suit.

Granted, it's made from a car, but like I have an advanced suit, but I can't do this without magic.

And I think, Ila, what you were kind of saying, too, is true.

It reminds me of Peter Parker in No Way Home.

I'll be like, there's some things that technology can't solve here.

And he goes to Strange for the spell.

Absolutely.

And here, I think that she does it better because where I think hers, when she took the magic at that point, it didn't feel as selfish as Peter Parker's is.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

I know we talked about her being kind of narcissistic in her grief, but like it didn't feel as like I'm motivated in the fact that I just want my life to change for the better.

But like she's using like if I can't save the world without the magic.

Does that feel right?

Yeah, I don't think she was selfish by integrating magic into her suit because she wasn't taking the hood from Parker for herself.

Of course, that's how it ended up.

but she was taking it from him because I mean I guess you can argue was for selfish reasons because basically he was going after her and so she needed to disable him but she could also see what the suit was doing to him and she made an assumption that he wouldn't be that kind of person if he took that hood off and I don't know if she was right in that assessment because I still think Parker was kind of that person with or without the hood even if the hood was amplifying his bad tendencies.

He's a twerp.

Yeah, but...

Yes.

But she wasn't taking the hood for personal gain.

She was taking it to protect herself and others, which is, yeah, sure, it's selfish, but she wasn't doing it to save the world.

But, like, she wasn't doing it because...

She needed something, right?

And you're right.

That's what Peter was going to Dr.

Strange for.

He needed something.

He wanted to make his life easier.

That's not right.

Yes.

Okay.

Can we talk about like the hood's motivations?

Because I think it ties into what you're saying a little bit.

Like he, before he had the hood, like he wasn't, you know, a good person.

He was kind of a whiny guy who, you know, I mean, he was okay.

So he was kicked out by his dad, but his reaction, you know, was kind of revenge and like wanting lots of money and all that other stuff like he i don't know i.

Was gonna say that when

When you think of that scene where he meets mephisto for that first time and if it's just like what do you want and i comparatively when you look at riri's she wanted her friend back which again is a self that could be selfish that could like your grief is motivating you to make a deal with the devil to bring back somebody who has died where his was literally like i want to be so stinking rich that nobody can i want enough power and to be rich that nobody can look down on me like that.

There's, there's two very different motivations here and his is clearly like the, I saw that and I was like, ooh, you're a sleazeball.

Like, you're like, you're just somebody who, granted, we don't know enough about his backstory, I guess, to really appreciate that.

But from what we've seen, he was not a great guy by any means.

No, but I also think there's something really interesting that I kind of wish the show had explored more.

Because, yeah, like, Parker was entitled, right?

Like, we don't understand,

Like, how it's out.

That's the word.

But he wanted his dad's money.

But then the thing is, Riri is also entitled.

But they come from the opposite backgrounds.

he was a rich kid she wasn't but both of them feel entitled like she feels she feels like the world like kind of owes her something for her genius right like even with that scene in mit where she's like yeah i'm gonna do better like she never dreamed that they were expelling her because she was like i deserve access to you right and like your technology and like i don't know it was it's a very interesting space to be in because i don't i don't think she's a hundred percent in the wrong i don't think that she's wrong in that the world kind of owes her something for her genius i think she was going about it in the wrong way Because she wasn't applying her genius to like do helpful things again she was applying it in a selfish way to build a suit for herself to protect her loved ones but about i don't know then there was also the conversation about like oh you can make it for paramedics that's like i feel like the problem with ironheart i feel like it's a little bit muddled like i really like a lot of what they were doing but like the more i think about riri's motivation i'm like she's a selfish person i think that that is okay to say and that is again not that's not the only thing she is so i don't think it's necessarily like i'm not saying she's a bad person right she also loves and protects people but she is also selfish and that makes her interesting but then there's also this side of it where she's like, I want to help other people, but then we don't really see that reflected in her actions.

That's just something she like says in a voiceover.

So...

I don't know.

That's where I guess I kind of wish the show had dug in more.

And that's where they could have compared her to Parker.

And I think that there

Was a lot of comparisons to

Iron Man with like,

I think back to the line where she's literally like the, well, he had, he was a billionaire.

So like, you know, and I'm somebody who grew up on it.

Like, again, like you were saying that kind of a little bit of entitlement of just like the, if I would have been born in different standards, I would have been differently, which is true.

But there was just like the the she did have that like if you i'm owed this because i am so intelligent and like almost like a chip on her shoulder for for for tony

And yeah and i mean i don't i don't think she had beef with tony and like she says you know she says like oh like i'm not gonna roast him but she does make those comments and i don't think they're specifically directed at tony i think they're directed at like just billionaires in general right and i think There's obviously jealousy that she does not have the resources to realize her vision.

But I don't know.

I think that that makes her very interesting.

She's young, so I feel like she gets, or at least she should get a little bit more slack.

I don't know that people on the internet are giving it to her.

Yeah.

But as people have pointed out, she didn't watch Iron Man 3.

She doesn't know what Tony can do with some hardware store supplies.

And that makes sense.

She's a regular kid that's grown up with Iron Man.

You know, she doesn't know his story.

And I don't know again I feel like I feel like she has a bit of a point I think she's going about it the wrong way but I think I think like she built MIT like a functional Iron Man suit the only one that's done it since Tony and they expelled her because she was trying to get more money to build a better suit for their for her school program I'm like she shouldn't have been plagiarizing and helping people cheat but like I don't know why don't you work with her to figure out how you can better support her academic goals and, Instead of like just expelling her on the first defense.

In my, you know, double standard world, I hope that, you know, somewhere off in comic book land that they also expelled the other students because that, you know, we're cheating.

And so they actually.

Oh, my God.

I didn't even think of that.

Yeah.

Right.

Because their degrees are all fraudulent.

Yeah.

And she's like taking the heat for all of them when, you know, they're the ones not doing the work.

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't even think about that.

Yeah.

They should be spelling all those people.

I think this also connects to like my idea of like where was the larger MCU because in my head I'm thinking like okay in Wakanda forever we got Val and we got the you know shady governments and stuff like that where was nobody was checking in on her with the suit.

Nobody was coming to recruit her not that they needed to recruit her but i'm just thinking like the it's like unchecked technology of like a of like a you should worry about this kind of level you know like not that she's a worse to some person but like you're letting a teenager run around with a

I i kind of agree with that because it's been a plot point in iron man movies that they don't like that tony's the only one with the technology now there's someone that's literally just calling it to get out of an argument with their mom in broad daylight on the streets of Chicago.

And I do kind of feel like that could have been made a bigger deal.

To me, like, I feel like the other elements of the show were strong enough that I wasn't missing some kind of, like, government intervention.

But I agree that, like, that is a missed opportunity to have, like...

It's Happy's fault.

He should have been watching.

He should have.

Where was he?

Oh my god, he could have cameoed.

He should have recruited her at the end.

Hehehehe

Isla, who were some standout characters for you?

I mean, I'm just going to say Zelma.

I loved her.

And her mom, Chef's Kiss.

And I hope that you loved her as much.

I loved Zelma so much.

She was fantastic.

And I would watch her in whatever else she's in.

I actually also really liked Stu, even though he was there for like two seconds.

Stu?

Yeah, Rampage Stu.

I really liked the actor.

And I thought he played that part really well.

And I don't know.

I mean, those are both fantastic answers and we need more Stu.

Where's Stu?

Let's bring Stu back.

He has a loose end.

Or was a loose end.

I forgot who he was for a second.

That's okay.

He's your discord friend.

Yeah, I know.

I remember it.

I was like, who's Stu?

I was like, oh, Stuart.

Yes.

So I do want to say this too and then I'm going to drop to you.

So even though his storyline felt very odd, i did like eke like i liked i liked him as like a character at first but he was then ended up i just like by the time we got to the end of his storyline it just felt like the ball was super dropped then to find out he potentially was going to be the one that did the serpent society in captain america i was like oh we could have had something even better and we just didn't get it and i see you you're like you're like no but we don't like eke

I loved eke in the first couple episodes oh

Sorry no no no you go for it.

Yeah no no i i loved eke in the first two episodes he was in i was like damn he's great and then i really didn't like him in the second half of the show i was like what are we doing here like when he was fighting riri with his shaved head and his attitude like i feel like alden aaron reich was so well cast as the pre-bionic version of eke and then i felt like he was so badly cast as the post-bionic version i just i because i couldn't take him seriously after after that right like he wasn't scary to me like his his level of power was scary but like his last scene with riri he's like this isn't over like we're not resolved like i'm still mad at you and i'm like yeah sure honey like you don't matter to her like she has a suit with magic now now that she has the tech to be better than you you don't matter like you're not intimidating and so i feel like that was kind of a problem because i was really loving him in the first few episodes and then other characters wise i liked elma too i really wish she had more screen time i of like the like the the gang that riri was running with i liked slug i thought that like i don't i don't watch drag race but i know people were excited for shea kule to be on this show and i really i thought that they did a great job and then i really liked riri and natalie like yes I didn't I didn't love AI Natalie sometimes like I There were some scenes where I found Natalie to be kind of grating, and then there were some scenes when I found Natalie to just be perfect.

And the perfect was more than the grating, but I just thought it was interesting, because I feel like that was kind of deliberate, because Riri was also getting annoyed with her.

And so I thought, I think the actress is Lyric Ross.

I feel like she did a very good job playing all sides of Natalie, like robot, human, sad, angry, supportive, happy.

I was impressed.

I want to jump into something you mentioned about Zeke that I think is just like such the character was interesting, but like just such a brilliant moment of like television storytelling.

And it's like towards the end of the series where, you know, Zeke is at the other end of the table with the hood and there's like all this food there.

And like the hood makes him eat caviar and he's, you know, a vegetarian or vegan.

And that's just like such a brilliant way of showing like how like corrupted the hood is that like he's making this guy like not only do these horrible things, but like go against all of his personal beliefs and and eat these things.

I love the parallels that they took of what happens when somebody is a controlling abuser and like it goes with that.

But like what happens if they have magical powers to, you know, I also agree that Zeke definitely took a left turn in the back.

The back three episodes and I think that I felt like again it was rushed I feel like I almost needed another couple of episodes or storylines or somewhere oh yeah but I do have to praise Lyric Ross for Natalie I love Natalie I'm hoping fingers crossed I if she doesn't come back in Vision Quest that has every single other AI like let Natalie be somewhere out there in the stratosphere and that they pull her back and that she's the one that comes back somehow to save my girl Riri and

I need more Natalie.

Wait, what you just said made me think.

Cause I was like,

I don't really want her in vision quest because I'm like, she's gone.

The AI version, right?

We have the real one back.

Like you've got the real one back.

You don't need the fake one anymore.

But there was that

Thing that Zelma said about like, why would, or someone said like, why would putting magic in Riri's suit erase Natalie?

And then I know that we were talking earlier about like, what if Mephisto had planned this whole thing from the beginning?

And that is a thought that I had as well while watching the show.

I'm like, I don't know if he planned it from the beginning in terms of like when he gave the hood to Parker, he was seeing like how it would get him to Riri.

But I feel like the glitch with the Natalie AI, I feel like that was Mephisto influenced because why else would, yeah, like putting magic into a suit, like a race and artificial intelligence.

So I don't know.

I don't, I don't need AI Natalie back.

And I feel like this might be a good segue into like the discussion about AI and like how it's mimicking the real world i can't believe they filmed this in 2022 but yeah there are people that are talking to ai like it's their friends and they're like let me ask chat and i have a friend who uses chat gpt a lot and it's like we will have a conversation and while we're talking she will be asking chat gpt the same things and like sometimes i feel like she's only agreeing with me with what i'm saying after ChatGPT has confirmed that it's on the same side as me.

And that's, like, very, that's very professional that, like, you have, like, this whole AI resurrecting dead loved ones arc in Ironheart.

I think that, I mean, I understand what you're saying, absolutely.

I think that, though, if you're having a show that has all the AIs in it, like, and you're ending those storylines, Natalie should be able to come back to then go on to save.

I think this talks about, like, this future storyline is, like, where is this headed?

And I think that because we're running out of time I do want to skip to that it's like where is this headed if there's not going to be a season 2 of Ironheart I do not think there is and if they are continuing the storyline where do we go from here I think that would be a really good segue of like you know kind of like how the vision was still out there on the internet in Age of Ultron have Natalie be there have her come back and then have her go on an arc to save Riri from this storyline but I mean where do we want this where would we like to see this storyline go how do we think it's gonna wrap up Uday's like it's not so why are we talking

About it yeah

I, so here's the thing.

A lot of the Disney Plus shows are miniseries, and I think that that works for most of them.

I don't think you necessarily need a season two for most of the Marvel Disney Plus shows.

They clearly weren't designed for a season two.

I think they should be getting second seasons.

I like that Marvel television is shifting its focus to multi-season shows rather than one-off event shows, but I think Ironheart can only continue in a season two.

That's why I have no faith on it being followed up because there's never been any kind of indication that Ironheart would continue.

And I think that that's a problem.

This storyline, the way it's been set up, the way it's been developed, I cannot see this being satisfactorily resolved in anything other than an Ironheart season two.

Even if Mephisto is the villain of a Champions movie, even if Riri and Agatha team up to take down Mephisto in another spinoff show or something, like the way that WandaVision spun into Agatha and Vision Quest was fine right the way Falcon and the Winter Soldier went into Thunderbolts and Cap 4 was fine I don't think you can do that with Ironheart I don't think you can do a spin-off and have it continue these threads I think it just needs a season two I think it's the only Marvel show that begs for one

Yeah I think I agree with that I very much would like there to be a season two just because I love the characters and there's so much going on and so much to explore i don't think it'll happen either and i think you know if by some miracle it happens i don't know if i'm personally willing to wait the six years or seven years to pick up on all of these awesome things i think we're most likely to see mephisto come back at some point and i like i loved sasha barn Cohen and like in what he brought to that role so i think that would be delightful to see you know somewhere else i don't know where that is i.

Would love to see him in his full we got a little bit in the spoon i want to see him in his full his full look i do think that if they're heading into x-men and then they're also heading into supernatural i think that there's a world where this does collide and i think like they're trying to like again streamline those storylines and that's where this is going having her become an agent of mephisto just for a project or two is kind of cool because they mentioned that and agatha of like the agents of mephisto and i want to know more of that oh and i feel like that's where she Yeah, and it is.

She has the hood on her iron suit at the end of the show.

Like, she has the virus thing on her back.

Like, she's going towards an evil storyline,

Even just for a little bit.

Let's see where that goes, in a way, you know?

But you're not going to get it before 2028.

Yeah.

True and that's like i'm also interested in that like the fact that she's got the the kid the hood on her suit i'm like wow you just stole dr doom's whole thing i'm like you got a red hood on a techie mask that's like i guess it's black not silver but i'm like you stole his whole outfit and i don't know like maybe maybe there's a possibility this is going to play into doomsday and secret wars i really doubt it i sincerely doubt it but i don't know I kind of like the idea of hood-wearing Riri going up against Dr.

Doom, Tony Stark.

I think there's an interesting place to play if she is, you know, a friend of the Avengers, right?

Or if she's a friend of Shuri and those people and kind of playing with where her allegiance is and seeing, you know, having her face that challenge herself, right?

If she has to do something that maybe Mephisto wants her to do that puts any future friends or stuff in danger.

I think that's kind of interesting to if we see that ever play out.

I do think it also makes interesting, too, because from where that is in the timeline, if you look on Disney Plus, by the time Secret Wars comes out, there's been years of her being whatever's going on.

You know?

Yep.

How has that

Impacted her so much?

Where is she at right now?

I think that's also a very interesting idea to kind of speculate about.

I'd also really like to see her story re-intersect with Shuri.

I like that Adelie was like, why don't you call Shuri?

And then Riri just mocked her for it.

But I would like to see where this goes because, again, like Riri hinted a little bit at her grief in Wakanda Forever, like with the car and her dad.

But I really want to see what Shuri has to say about this because Shuri in that moment she did not let her anger and her grief get the best of her, right?

And so I feel like she would be very disappointed in Riri for the choice that she's made especially after she got a front row seat to Shuri's own like, you know, Shuri wasn't making a deal with the devil but she could have slipped into the darkness and killed Namor and Riri had a front row seat to that and so I'd like that to be addressed I don't think the place to do that is in Black Panther 3, though.

I think it is in Ironheart Season 2.

Agreed.

When you said that this is the show that, like, almost demands it...

You could almost, well,

Besides Moon Knight season two, I do need that.

But I feel like this is one of those ones that it does almost demand it because they left on such a cliffhanger that you, even or Strange Academy 2, wherever it's coming up, there has to be something specifically to address this because this is not something you could address in a substory of a film.

Yeah.

Need more time.

Yeah.

And that's my point about it.

It's like in Strange Academy and Black Panther three in a champions movie in nothing other than an Ironheart season two, would you be able to dig into?

Yeah, I made a deal with the devil to bring my best friend back to life.

And I want to know I want to know Gary's back to like, did she pick did she pick Natalie over Gary?

Did Mephisto offer her both?

I'm like, I it seems like just Natalie is back.

But yeah, like that's not a footnote in a champions movie.

It's not like even if Ruby was like the villain of a champions movie, it's not like it's not like you could be like, oh, yeah, like, look, her dead best friend is back.

It's just it's it needs to be her own story.

She needs to be the main character of it.

And there's so many implications with that.

Right.

So, like, you know, we talked about the blip and people not on this podcast, but people having to, you know, restart their.

Lives and come

Back after five years when family had moved on and stuff.

Well, Natalie now is suddenly here after being, you know, dead.

What does that mean for Xavier?

What does that mean for anybody else, especially like given his reaction to her AI?

I wonder how it's explained.

I kind of feel like, wasn't Mephisto responsible for one more day, like in the Spider-Man mythos?

I feel like she's back and it's like she's never left for everyone except Riri.

I think no one else remembers that she ever died.

I was thinking the same thing and I thought, though, that is such an interesting concept because you almost need that to be the answer.

Because I feel like she has to be the only one to have that burden.

Because otherwise, who is the one that really gets hurt here?

It's going to be Natalie.

Natalie's the one that's going to get hurt because who's going to take her back in that way?

It's not going to be the same.

The dynamics have changed.

You almost need it that everyone forgot that she ever died.

Yeah, and it would be too messy to explain how she's suddenly back to life.

But you have magic and you have the comic precedent of like, like, you still brought her back to life and just altered everyone's memories.

And, like, you know, maybe he even made up a fake degree for Natalie and was like, hey, you went to college too.

And he could do that, right?

Because he said, even in the pizza restaurant, he says, you know, you want me to make the whole city quiet or something?

So he can, like, do these things to people on a large scale.

Mm-hmm.

Yike.

He is the, he's almost like, I think he is the ultimate villain that they really needed to tie some of these projects together.

He needed to be, he needed to be in more projects, maybe.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, or he needs like some kind of plan going forward.

Like I love the magic side of the MCU.

And I tweeted this when reviews of Ironheart were coming out, when people were like, it's like offers a great like glimpse at the magic side of the MCU and we'll just leave you begging for more.

And I'm like, I've been begging for more for nine years now since Doctor Strange one, I've been begging for more magic.

and nothing, nothing has delivered on it.

Like WandaVision, we got some great like little snatches of witchcraft.

Agatha, we got some great more little snatches of witchcraft.

But like one of my biggest disappointments with Multiverse of Madness is the lack of magic lore expansion.

And it's been now three years since Multiverse of Madness and I'm still waiting for it.

Ironheart wasn't the show in which to do it.

I agree with that.

Like I like what they included, but it was a tech show.

But I'm just like, I can't keep asking for more magic.

At some point, you need to just give it to me.

Question before we wrap up.

I know we're running out of time.

We're running over time.

Sorry, Lizzie.

When it came to the magic that was used, did the MCU now run out of colors or are we dealing with chaos magic here?

This is what I need to know.

It's chaos magic.

You think so?

Yeah, it's red.

No other magic is red.

There's no way that the people at Marvel, I feel like, they would have to reach new levels of sloppy

To let that slip through

Like the sensors you know or not the sensors like the producers the reviewers whatever but because the standard magic color is blue or orange sorry the standard color for witchcraft is blue the standard color for sorcery is orange and so you easily could have made that even if you had filmed it with red lighting i feel like red lighting would be pretty easy to adjust to orange in post yeah

I feel like it has to be chaos magic.

And I'm disappointed it wasn't confirmed in the show.

Because I was thinking, are they going to call it Mephisto magic?

But is Mephisto's magic also chaos magic?

I would love that.

Just explain it.

You should be Shethan's brother.

You should be Shethan's brother and they should be the villains of the Scarlet Witch movie written by Jack Schaefer who needs to get away from Amazon and get back to Disney.

Jack has a deal with Amazon.

Right?

She just signed an overall deal with Amazon.

It looks like she's out of commission for the next several years in terms of the Marvel stuff.

And I'm like, maybe this is also a problem.

Maybe Marvel is also just not, maybe they can't lock down the right talent because I do not understand how after Agatha, Jack Schaefer is not continuing her overall deal with Disney and Marvel.

And I think Nexus Point News, the person that runs that, who I love her, I follow her on Twitter and I love all her tweets.

She said she heard that Jack Schaefer was not interested in doing anything else for Marvel after Agatha.

And that, to me, is the biggest crime that the MCU has committed in the last seven years, is that they couldn't keep Jack Schaefer interested.

I mean, as a writer, I can see how you don't want to be boxed in and you want to be able to explore whatever you want to explore.

And maybe Disney Marvel doesn't offer that.

Yeah.

And again, maybe it's also just it could totally just be a personal choice on Shaq Schaefer's part that she wants to do something different.

But in my Wanda fan riddle, I am just thinking if only they offered you the Scarlet Witch movie, you'd still be with us.

But I do think that part of it, if I remember correctly, is that she was going to be involved with Vision Quest and then there was like creative differences.

And she like was like, OK, somebody else can handle this.

Yeah.

So that does show that maybe there was a splitting like there was a parting of the ways with the Mickey's of my houses.

Maybe there was.

I read that situation more as like I know she had to step up more on Agatha than she intended to.

Like she said in an interview that she was only supposed to direct the first two episodes and then like something happened and she had to step in to direct like the seventh one i think and or the eighth one something like that and so i kind of like to me i read it more as like a production issue than like a creative issue but maybe maybe it was both or maybe it was just creative and she was like i'm just gonna finish agatha and then peace out of here but again if if there were creative differences after the success of wandavision and agatha I feel like we can firmly say that Marvel is going to be the one suffering and not Jack Schafer.

The Amazon dollars were very powerful.

Yeah, I get it.

Get that back.

And on that note, we are running out of time.

But we'd love to continue the conversation.

So check us out at thecosmiccircus.com, or you can find us on Twitter and other social medias at My Cosmic Circus.

Thank you again for tuning in to The Cosmic Circle.

My name is Brian Kitson, and you can find me on Twitter at Kitson301.

Uday, Ayla, where can the people find you?

So I think I'm still on Twitter.

T-U-L-A-N writes at, I was going to say at Twitter.com, but that doesn't work.

So yeah, find me there.

And I'm on YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, everything at GoldenNinja3000.

Also, Ayla, don't forget that they can find you at MoviesWeTextedAbout.

Yeah, I also have a website, MoviesWeTextedAbout.com.

So you can always find her reviews and interviews there.

So I need to read some of them.

But thank you so much, everybody, for joining us.

We look forward to our next trip to the cosmos.