Welcome back to the Doctor Who Power Hour, brought to you by The Cosmic Circus.

Looking for the latest Superman comic?

Can't find that Star Trek figure you've been looking for?

Look no further than your local Cosmic Circus, where you can find anything nerdy underneath their big top.

Sorry about that, listeners.

There seems to be something going on with our reality.

But thankfully, the captain of our ship has stabilized the force fields.

So welcome back to another episode of The Cosmic Circle, the official podcast of The Cosmic Circus.

On today's episode, we will be talking about the back half of Doctor Who Season 2.

My name is Brian Kitson, head writer at The Cosmic Circus, and joining me today are a collection of Doctor Who nerds.

Cam, Vic, Lizzie, we are so excited to have you here.

Hi, I'm Lizzie Hill, editor in Chief at The Cosmic Circus.

And our captain of our ship.

Thank you for stabilizing those force fields.

We really appreciate that.

Good evening, everyone.

Well, I'm happy to be back for yet another round of Doctor Who.

I feel like this is our fourth time, I want to say.

Maybe more now.

I think more.

More, yeah.

We're big fans of Doctor Who here.

Yeah, if you can't tell.

Again, usually it's Vic and Cam and I, we're usually geeking out, but we got to have another person with us today.

This is the perfect conversation because we have a lot to discuss.

There's a lot of big things about Doctor Who that happened, things that we're maybe looking forward to.

We're going to touch base on what this animated series is about.

Just a heads up, everybody, spoiler warning, we will be talking about Doctor Who Season 2 on Disney Plus across the globe besides the UK, where you can find it on iPlayer, correct?

Yes, cool.

So if you have not watched that yet, please pause this, go watch it and come back and join us.

And hopefully we can make this episode without having another flicker of our reality.

No, we have neutralized him.

We are very, very excited.

You will be destroyed.

Cam, I want to start with you.

Hello.

Last time we checked in, we checked in at the halfway point of Doctor Who Season 2.

We've had four more episodes.

They're big episodes, but you also got to see two of the episodes in the cinema.

I did.

I need your thoughts.

What is going on?

What are you loving?

Like general thoughts before we dive in and get some of the more detailed adventures of the Doctor.

Well, I got to say, I'll talk about it more, but obviously seeing the last two episodes of the season in the cinema, you're never going to beat that experience.

It's just a room full of Doctor Who nerds.

The very last episode, they clapped and cheered twice, and I think you know which exact points they were.

Overall, I think it's been a very good season in terms of the story and into weaving it with bringing back older characters and giving you new enemies and everything.

There's definitely been some very good episodes in the latter half, as well as maybe some missed opportunities I found, but I have very much enjoyed it overall.

I agree with you that I think that this season two I thought was very good.

I thought it was a lot tighter of a story than season one.

However, I do love Ruby and we're going to talk about the lack of Ruby and how we need more Ruby in our lives.

But I liked this season and everything it kind of brought.

Vic, what are your thoughts?

Give them to us.

First of all, I'm going to say that I much more preferred this season from the first season.

Basically, for me, it's another Russell T.

Davies situation where we've got a new Doctor Who.

We have to start from the beginning.

We have to check out how it's going to sell.

We're going to test out the waters.

That's what the season one was all about.

Season two, I was really surprised because it had a great beginning, had a great middle of the season and the end.

It was fantastic.

I'm really surprised that back a few weeks ago, when we were recording the podcast about the first half of the season, I was pretty skeptical about the second half and I was afraid that it's going to have a very messy end, especially after all the rumors that we had about this season being the final and everything else.

But he delivered and should he deliver and I'm going to say that I really don't have very much to say except positive things.

I was going to say the way that you paused when you're like in the ending and I was like, oh, he hated the ending and I was like, we are about to have a brawl in front of Lizzie and this is not going to be nice.

But I'm glad to hear that it's all positive thoughts and I can't wait to break those down.

Lizzie, you have a unique perspective here.

I hope that I can share this real quick is that you just recently caught up.

This was something that you like, where we were watching it live, it was happening season 1 when it happened in season 2.

You recently sat down and got through them.

What was that like for you?

The reason was with that Christmas episode, I knew what it was about and the topic felt like it was very personal to me.

I had honestly had put off continuing.

Even though I liked the first season, I had put off continuing the second season because of that, I wasn't quite ready because it involved a woman whose mother dies in a hospital by herself.

Very COVID like situation.

I went through basically the same thing in 2021 mother.

I was there when she passed away, but they two weeks while she was sick and she had all the other problems as well and such.

That was a very rough time in my life and so I had a hard time catching up with that.

I did appreciate the episode after I finally decided, okay, I'm going to try not to cry and I'm going to get through it.

Then after I got through that, I did enjoy the season a lot.

It was interesting how I did have a trouble trying to pick a favorite episode because each episode, which I suppose is Doctor Who, ask for them to have something in the episode that makes you uncomfortable or makes you think or a bit upsetting.

It was like I would think back and say, okay, well, I like that episode.

There were a lot of brilliant things about that episode, but there was this this and this that was maybe a little upsetting.

Of course, the Joy to the World, the whole subject matter, the Joy to the World, with the woman losing her mother was upsetting.

But I ended up enjoying that a lot.

But I do, I do, I will say about this, Ncuti has been great at a great example of a doctor as far as, as much as I've seen, I haven't seen all the Doctor Who stuff, but I mean, I think he's been a great example as far as being caring and kind of crazy and a good hero that you wanna root for, but also very terrifying when he gets mad.

And that seems to embody the doctor very well.

So, I think he did really well with that.

I also appreciated with this, both the seasons, there was a lot of inclusion and diversity in different ways.

Like it was the LGBTQ and trans and people with disabilities and people of different cultures and people of color and stuff, all being featured in different ways in the episode.

And I think that's very important and it would be a shame if Disney decides to not continue to show this to Americans.

But we'll see, I guess, with that.

But I think that was probably one of my favorite things about these two seasons.

I think that it's interesting that you brought that up.

I'm glad you brought it up too because it is very inclusive and it is very, it's like one of the biggest things that people are criticizing about right now is about like it being woke.

But like really, I think that's one of the things that it embraces, is that like it shows that there's so many people of different lifestyles.

And we're all can be represented in a show that's about an alien with two hearts, the time travels.

Like nothing about this is realistic to begin with.

So like we can have reality in the way that we're presenting.

And they did really well these two seasons with that.

So I'm really glad you mentioned that.

Yeah.

I mean, and as you say, it's not reality.

It's this crazy situation.

And yet they still have these aspects that are very human, like the Joy of the World situation and a number of other places where it's, you understand the heartbreak somebody's going through and you get attached to the character.

So I mean, and that's what's a great thing to see in any show really.

So Cam, what is a favorite episode from the back half of the season for you?

Do you have one?

I mean, I know that we talked about, we really liked The Well and Lucky Day, but there's some strong episodes on that back end.

Yes, absolutely.

I think one of the underrated ones for me was definitely Story & the Engine.

Like I didn't have a sort of a clue what that was going to be about, but I really enjoyed how that turned out, especially sort of getting to see the doctor, like a bit more comfortable with being on earth and like enjoying like Africa because of course, he's like a black doctor and it's like, it's getting involved with the culture and like all of that sort of thing.

So that was like really nice to see.

And then it was a really good story.

And obviously we had the Fugitive Doctor cameo, which was sort of the big shock of the episode which I really enjoyed as well.

So it's sort of Russell T.

Davies bringing all of that back in his own little way which was very good.

But I think the standouts for me, I really enjoyed Wish World actually.

I think the whole sort of premise of like, you know, the Conrad getting his own sort of perfect world where you can't like think too much or, you know, things slip out of place and all of that.

I enjoyed that.

And obviously the Rani coming back at the end of the Eurovision one.

No, sorry, Galactic Song Contest.

But yeah, so it has been sort of a very strong back half.

It's hard to pick a favorite.

Vic, do you have a favorite from the back half?

I'm going to say that I'm going to agree with Cameron that The Story & the Engine was the most unpredictable episode of this season because we didn't really know what it's all about.

But my favorite episode is going to be the finale, The Reality War.

Because at least it's from my perspective that it was the most Doctor Who-y, timey, wimey, wobbly, wibbly, wobbly stuff that I remember about Doctor Who whenever someone asks me what Doctor Who is about.

And I'm gonna say wibbly wobbly timey wimey because you really don't know how crazy it's gonna get, how certain things are gonna change and what the current showrunner will do in the finale that's gonna make you say yeah this is Doctor Who's show.

I really understand it.

It's the perfect finale.

Even though it's a sad finale and it's a finale that makes you wonder sometimes what's your life would be if you had this one thing in your life that's missing and you knew that it's missing but everybody around would think that you're crazy or that it's just something else happening.

But we're surely gonna get to it later but I have to say that it really made me believe that Shitty wasn't chosen by by an accident, that him being casted as the Doctor was perfect for this two season run.

Well, I'm sad that he left and this finale is definitely one of the best and I'm gonna say that it's the top three of Russell T.

Davies' finales.

You know, before we go to Lizzie, I want to jump in real quick.

I absolutely loved the combination of Wishworld and The Reality War but I really think of this almost as a three-parter because it feels like the seeds were so strong in the Interstellar Song Contest that it really was like the prologue to Wishworld.

But I loved the concept of Wishworld where it was just the, what if the villain won?

You know, what if the villain won and the doctor didn't know?

It gave me some, it gave me a little bit of that old RTD feel.

It was kind of spooky because a lot of the times these people didn't know what was real and what was reality and like what was their true life and what wasn't.

And I think that sometimes we all just, not in that way, but we struggle with just like what is true and what is false.

And, you know, they're all basically being gaslit to believing that they're living in a 1950s world of British.

And I love that it showcased Ruby so much and that she was the one that kind of saw through it all.

And also just getting to see her, I mean, Millie Gibson, fantastic.

And but like she acted her butt off in those two episodes when everybody just believed that she was lying and breaks your heart.

So I agree with you.

I just Reality War, I think, is one of the strongest finales I've seen in a long time.

And I'm really excited for that one.

But Lizzie, what episode from this season really stood out to you?

As I said, I had a hard time kind of picking because I thought they were all weird, but I just had a difficult time choosing.

I did think the Joy to the World one was really good.

And I really liked Zeta in it, I'll add.

I was very happy to see her return at the end in Reality War.

I agree also with the story.

It was super interesting and very, very different because you're getting this different culture that you're kind of getting a look into.

I also always loved, you know, gods and myths, mythology stuff.

And I could have done without The Big Spider.

But the effects were quite good this season as well.

I think in previous years, even when they were just with the BBC, their effects have been pretty good.

That's probably if a more recent one would be.

And the Wish world, the Wish one, just completely threw me off with this doctor and Belinda in bed together and married and having a child.

I'm like, what?

Wait a minute, what?

The fourth wall breakage as well later with the fans.

But there was also some very uncomfortable aspects about the misogyny and the homophobia and what was being done to people with disabilities in this world.

I also know that Susan, the senior woman gets relegated to being a cleaning lady.

I mean, like whose wish world is this really, you know?

So yeah, so that was, yeah, I'll think of wish world.

I think I will because I think that was the most interesting one.

And it just made me uncomfortable in a number of places because I wanted to strangle Conrad basically.

I think we're going to really dive into wish world and the reality wars.

I want to give us enough time, but I want to talk about the story and the engine real quick because I think that it's super important in that I liked that we saw the doctor embrace who he is at this time, which we've always seen this, but we've always seen him most of the time be a white guy.

And then there was one time that we had a female doctor and we haven't seen a lot of...

we've had the fugitive doctor, but we have not had enough time with the fugitive doctor.

We've not been able to dive into that, but getting to see him embrace what he looks like and who he is...

And in my head, I was like, this is why he understands and appreciates humans so much, is that he wants to protect them, is because he got to step into those shoes and he can step in those shoes anytime and learn deeply about every single person or every single culture that walks by.

But Cam, let's talk about The Story & the Engine.

Yes.

Tell me your thoughts on this story.

This was a very, like, heavy one.

Yeah, there was, I mean, there was a lot going on.

It was like, I felt like you have to watch it maybe more than once to fully understand it because it was quite a lot going on.

Like the villains, this guy that sort of basically gave the gods all their stories and then he's wanting to tell his own and all of that.

And it was sort of like a mysterious hairdressers and all of that kind of thing.

Because, you know, it's like you do when you're in a hairdressers or a barbers or whatever, you do end up telling stories like, you know, if you're chatty or like me, you just sit in silence and I hope they don't speak to you.

But so it was sort of one of the like, because obviously it was one of the ones that wasn't written by Russell, I don't think, like he got in a guest writer, I think, yes, off the top of my head.

Yes.

So it's nice that they've been doing that this season a bit, because obviously you had Kate Herron last season who did Rogue.

And then this season you've had, I forget who the writer is for this episode, but this one doing sort of like this African mythology tale, which was sort of really good.

So I've really enjoyed all the different stories they've managed to bring into this these seasons especially.

And just seeing how they, that's it, Inua Elmas, thank you.

But yeah, it was just sort of really interesting and like made you appreciate things a lot more, especially the doctor being in effect, a black man.

You know, something too, going back to the writer, is that Elmas is not only like from Nigeria, understanding the culture, you know, but is also the first black man to have written for Doctor Who.

Like this was a big, like, how did we go almost two full seasons without having somebody to write for Shudi in this context?

I mean, I'm glad that they did it.

I'm glad that we got this story because I feel like that's so important.

Yeah, we need more of them.

We need more of the 15th Doctor to be able to tell these stories.

But I think that's why I also feel so rich.

I mean, and this is also a writer who wrote a play about black barbershops in six cities.

You know, like there is this, he understands how culturally important a barbershop is.

And I'm really glad we got to see that.

Vic, what do you think of the story and the engine?

As we mentioned before, it was a really surprising episode that was very unexpected.

I really appreciate, just like you guys said, the cultural impact on it, because even when I was doing my master thesis, we were having a lecture about the importance of the barbershops in America, where you have these iconic neighborhood neighbors, where people just go in, they just sit with the barber and they just talk, like their family, like their friends, like they knew each other for a very, very long time.

And it's part of not only American culture at this point, it's part of worldwide culture, because as this episode shown, you can just go in, talk with a barber as a friend, and your life gets better at a point, and the world gets better, because you get bad things from your chest, you feel better at the moment.

And this episode really, dare I say, even made me feel better at some point, because I felt that I'm not the only one who has to get things off my chest to express my feelings, to express my problems.

And asking the doctor, breaking in tears even at some point, showing how deeply broken he is, it really made me feel something about this incarnation that I didn't feel since Capaldi.

That it's like admitting to your own broken personality, that you're so broken, you try to avoid your problems just with a smile.

And with calling other's friends and helping them.

But that's also that we're certainly gonna talk about later, but that's also the reason why the 14th Doctor by-generated is so the tenant can rest and should he can fix himself.

And that's something that I really connected to watching this episode.

But the whole idea of the Spider, I was...

I don't like Spider, sorry.

But that's why Doctor Who is scary.

Yeah.

I still didn't watch the Johnny Whitaker's episode of The Spiders.

It's still on my don't watch it list.

I just don't like Spiders.

But the whole idea with showing the gods, the person creating the stories for gods and telling those stories, it's a very interesting idea that I would love to explore further, even if it's the audio story for the Big Finish Studio.

Because you can feel the exact story, the impact of those stories.

It's just maybe one more episode would have been really great.

Like just to make it much more harder.

Lizzie, what did you think of The Story & the Engine?

I thought it was a great episode.

It was interesting seeing how they showed the stories and the spider effects was great.

And just looking at the culture, which we're not really used to seeing different cultures on Doctor Who necessarily.

They're not that much, or at least not in my previous watching of them.

So it was all pretty good.

I looked up the actor's name, the barber's name, Ariane Bakari.

I think his name is, I think I've seen him in several things.

He was very good in that as well.

I also thought I agree with what the other guys say, but also I think it's interesting how this season, and this is another example of it, what it seems to be reflecting on, what revenge does to people, or what feeling if you've been rejected or pushed away, what that does to people.

In this particular case, you ended up with hopefully a redemption story.

But some of the others like in the Robot Revolution, he wanted her attention and he turned into a monster.

In the song contest, you have terrorists who have had horrible things happen and turning into monsters.

It's just a theme of what revenge does to people, which was interesting, which I'm sure that's been a Doctor Who theme for a while now as well.

But that's all.

The thing that I really liked about this episode is that it felt like it was spiritually connected to Dot and Bubble from last season, where the doctor is such a, for lack of a better term, I can't think of the right word, but he's a superior being.

He figures everything out and he has the technology, he has the brains, he has the smarts, and in Dot and Bubble, he was still criticized for his skin color in the end, where you can't come with us because of how you look.

You get to see him come out against this challenge of like, there's some things that no matter how smart you are, no matter how talented you are, there's some barriers you're always going to run up to.

So to see him get to embrace it, like the spiritual connection of like, people are going to hate you for it, but there's always a community for everybody and I love that.

But Cam, Vic, Lizzie, this is for all of you, but those who remember, didn't this feel a little bit like the Rings of Akatan?

Like, with the storyteller, with the leaf, with Clara.

This is from when Clara first kind of joined the Doctor with Matt Smith.

It's right after Amy and Rory died.

Yeah, like I felt like that a little bit too, with like the telling of the stories.

And like, I was getting parallels with that.

I thought, man, that would have been a really cool, like, retroactive connection to the gods.

Like, we could have somehow been like, that being was not just like a vampire, but an energy vampire, but was also part of the labyrinth that is the gods.

And Cameron, I saw that you unmuted yourself there, so you have thoughts.

Well, it was more just to say that I don't really remember that episode.

So I probably aren't the best to ask for thoughts.

So I'll leave it to the people that will.

Vic, do you remember that episode?

Yeah, of course.

It has one of my favorite speeches of Doctor.

Take it all?

Yeah, yeah, just take it all.

Take all of my problems, take all of my stories, take all of my past.

Yeah, it was a very pretty strong episode.

It's really, I think it's my second favorite, Matt Smith's Doctor monologue right after the regeneration one at the end, when he lives.

Because his regeneration one is the most, I think at this point in our lives is much more important.

My dear, but the ending of Rigs of Akaten and of this episode felt really similar because it was perfect.

I think it was almost one-to-one execution where Doctor Just says, take it all, take all of my stories and be gone.

Like it felt, it may have felt, sorry for that.

It may have felt a little cheap as a, you know, as just bring it back in this way.

But I feel like at some point you have to reuse it in order to show how much Doctor have lived since that moment.

And that it is even much more impactful.

I was going to say, it feels like this is, it's like, this was a little bit easier to digest, but also more relevant than an alien that isn't representative of people who could see themselves in it.

Because it was just like a mummified vampire in that one.

So but before we wrap up on this episode too, we got to talk about Poppy because Poppy's comes back in this one.

Good old Poppy.

What did we think of seeing...

Was this the first time we saw Poppy again?

Correct?

Was that the very end?

It was a stinger?

Yeah, you see her just like Belinda, then she runs off or whatever.

So that was sort of, you know, a bit of a shock at the time.

It's like, what's she doing there and what she got to do with everything?

For sure.

Were you expecting that?

No, no, nobody was expecting the Poppy storyline, I don't think.

Vic and Lizzie, what did you think of?

Actually, Lizzie, we'll start with you.

What did you think of Poppy showing back up?

We kind of hadn't seen her since Space Babies early in Season 1.

I'll be honest, I completely forgot about her from Space Babies.

It was a cute episode, but I mean, I just thought, oh, it's a little girl.

I wonder what's going on with that, but I didn't really connect the two until the last episode.

I was pretty confused by how they did all that in the last two episodes, Poppy, so I'm hoping you guys will enlighten me and you understand it a little better.

I was looking online for explanations.

It seems like everybody else is confused about it as well.

Poppy definitely feels like a late stage ad.

I think that they were trying to do something.

Again, when things change because we know plans change so much, and especially when Doctor Who changed so fast.

But Poppy felt a little bit odd in this episode.

I'm just like, why did she show up?

What is she doing?

I don't feel like it even really connected to the rest of the story.

I think somebody had said something about, she appears in Wishworld because the doctor had met her and had advised her as the daughter.

And that's how she ended up looking like, look, that Poppy and being named that Poppy.

But then, well, you'll explain it to me later about how that ended.

She's very cute.

I'll say she's very cute, but she confuses me.

She is adorable.

And I think that we'll talk about it when we get time in the end of just her mother on TikTok posted exactly what Dan said about what the ending was supposed to be and what they filmed.

And I think that explains a little bit different and why it all pieces together and why it maybe feels a little more disjointed.

But Vic, let's turn to the Interstellar Song Contest.

I want to address this one really quick.

I think that what I loved about this episode is that it went from super, super colorful to one of the darkest moments in Doctor Who.

When we see the doctor just torturing somebody.

What was this episode like for you, Vic?

What was that journey?

I'm just going to say that as a Polish person, I have PTSD when it comes to the Eurovision.

So I have to hate it.

It's in my nature.

Sorry people.

But it's the one thing that I like about Eurovision that they used it to inspire this episode.

I liked it despite all the first 10 minutes of singing and this weird vibe that was there.

But I think that it's definitely one of the darkest episodes, especially when it comes to showing the side of the doctor when he doesn't have a companion beside him.

That's exactly why I loved Stephen Moffat's arc when Capaldi didn't have a companion, where he became the president of the Gallifrey and he almost became the Russellian 2.0.

I think that it was him becoming the master 2.0 because he maybe some part of it wanted to get the information no matter the cost and he tried to do it in the easiest way possible.

And Doctor always chose the best way to stay true to his ideals, but this time he chose the easiest way and to torture someone.

So it was really, I don't want to say very good, but in terms of writing and showing this other side, it was really interesting.

And I don't know if, I think it was my favorite moment as in terms of the scenes that were important in this episode.

So yeah, even the run, it wasn't as important as this moment to me.

Sorry, guys.

No, it's okay.

Cameron, I do want to go to you real quick, but I feel like this was the darkest that we've seen him almost since.

I feel like we got a little bit of nine back in him.

You know what I mean?

Where he was just, you saw that look in his eyes and I was actually terrified for a moment.

And getting to watch Bolinda experience that, I think was just for excellent Doctor Who television.

But what was in the Initial R song contest for you?

Well, obviously when I watched it, I asked on Twitter if the Americans knew who the heck Rylan was, because I felt like outside of Britain, you wouldn't have a clue who Rylan is.

No idea.

Not a big part of the episode, but quite important.

Sorry, no.

But he's basically like-

I know I've seen him on one of the game shows that are from BBC that I sometimes pick up on YouTube.

I know who Graham Norton is, but I didn't know a lot about Rylan.

I know I've seen him on 8 out of 10 Cats or something like one of those things.

Yeah.

He's basically just like a British celebrity that's really into Eurovision.

So he does the radio for it, while Graham does the TV voiceover basically, just to explain for anyone who doesn't know.

Obviously, we did get Graham Norton, which I loved, nice bit of Eurovision royalty right there.

But yeah, in terms of everything else, it was a very interesting episode in terms of what it was trying to say, obviously with this big evil corporation who we don't find out much about burning the home planet so they can like harvesting all of this poppy honey or whatever it was.

Honey, poppy, something honey.

Then obviously, villainizing the people of that planet for the rest of the galaxy to justify why they want to do it.

There was a lot of obviously maybe relevant politics in that episode, even if it could have been maybe talked about a bit better within the context of Doctor Who I did find in some parts.

But obviously, it was there to give the Doctor a reason to go a bit mad and realize when there's five trillion life forms on the line, it's like, is he going to cross the line and torture someone so much that he kills him basically?

So it was a very dark moment for him.

And then obviously, you have Belinda basically having to bring him back into reality.

So it's sort of a very emotional ending to the episode, especially.

And it definitely puts in to, you kind of question the Doctor do no harm, you know, like, what was more harm?

You know, it's like the trolley problem.

Like, do you save the one person or do you save the five people?

And to get to see that darkness and also just losing what he thought was Belinda was huge.

And like he he felt responsible getting her home.

And in that moment, he couldn't.

And so to see him turn on, I think that that was one of those moments where you just got to see, should he just be like, you get to see his range.

Like what an incredible performance from him.

Also, shout out to the fact that we had Miriam Teakley in there and those for you, those of you who are not Broadway nerds.

She won an Olivier Award for Ann Juliet over in the UK.

She was also in Hamilton.

So big deal to have her on the show and be able to, to have her sing a song on there.

So I'm going to get off my soapbox now.

Lizzie, let's talk about the Inner Souther Song Contest.

This was like I said, it's dark, it's light, it's fun.

We had that dodo bird looking thing.

A lot was going on.

Yeah, I don't know.

I've never really watched the Eurovision.

Sorry, Cam.

Sorry, Vic.

But yeah, it was like you guys were saying about a very strong performance from Chuti.

It proves why he is a very good doctor.

Because that is one of the requirements is for the doctor to lose his mind a little bit and be a little scary.

But he's all, again, showed his range.

So I thought he did a terrific job.

Again, like what I meant more about this is another episode where you're seeing what revenge turn to and again, as Cam mentioned, there are some political things going on.

We can think about for our own world today.

Yeah, it was a very strong episode.

I think that it's worth noting that this episode really did kick off the next two because we got the running reveal that people have been calling since the moment we saw Mrs.

Flood in the church on Ruby Road.

Was anybody shocked by that reveal?

No, more shocked that she sort of by regenerated.

But no, was not shocked by the reveal one bit.

I mean, she's been like a really creepy, weird force for the past two seasons, like just saying cryptic things and all of that sort of stuff.

So the reveal was a welcomed reveal, sort of not saving it till the very last sort of episodes of the season, which I enjoyed.

Vic, were you surprised at all?

No, at this point, I feel like it's just a standard thing to bring Ruby back again and her story arcs back again, it's like.

So, you know, I think that nobody, Lizzie, were you surprised?

Again, I was surprised by the bi-generation, but I wasn't surprised that she was, I thought she could have been another version of the master or something like that.

That's what I at first thought.

I hadn't heard of the Ronnie before this.

Also, I don't know if you're going to bring up the whole, the appearance of his granddaughter Susan, and what that was about.

Do you want to talk about that?

For sure.

Absolutely.

I was curious what you think.

Yeah.

I actually forgot about that because it was a blink and you miss a moment.

That again, should have been more.

If we would have had another season, it would have been more.

Cam, you being our expert in the British world over there, how big of a deal was that?

Obviously, like you said, it was a very blink and you miss it moment.

I think at the time before we knew that it's not really going to lead to much things now, it's because obviously you talked about her in the first season.

You never got to see her, but you'd mentioned he has a granddaughter in the first season, that's in that Beatles one.

Then she's mentioned a few other times, but I think actually seeing her is a big deal for a lot of fans.

It opened the whole box of, is she going to be like, what's happening with her?

Why does he need to find her?

Like all of this stuff.

But obviously with the changing of the plans for things, it's like she may not be found now, but we'll see what happens in the future.

Yeah, it felt very much like the...

See, this is where I wonder, there was talks about how they wanted this to be approachable, so people didn't have to watch years and years and years of Doctor Who.

And I don't think that that is going to impact on anybody who hasn't watched specifically Old Who.

That means almost nothing.

I was like, it's cool for those fans who know it, but did it have the emotional impact that they were hoping for?

I don't know.

Vic, what are your thoughts on Susan showing up?

I think that's a good moment to bring the rumors back before the 60th anniversary, where it was rumored that Susan will be back either in the 60th anniversary or in the season one.

And I think that season two was the perfect, after all those things that happened with it and the continuation, I think it was the season that Russell T.

Davies decided to use to bring back those ideas that he had back then and he did not use them, especially bringing Susan back, which was the, I think, even the more important aspect of Doctor Who, rather than bringing back the old doctors, because she was his second companion, she was his granddaughter and he left her and the first doctor left her and it was still, she was still a part of his life from the past that he forget about and he tried to fix it for 14, 15 regenerations and he never got a chance and she's appearing from nowhere and I think that it's not a story arc that will be abandoned even if Shutey is gone.

It can easily be used again with a new doctor, with another doctor, with a doctor who will be present in like 10 years, but you have to do it quickly.

But I'm really happy because Susan coming back is like, even for a second is something that I wanted to see even though I didn't see, I didn't watch the whole, all to Legacy, Doctor Who era, but as Doctor Who fan, I understand that she is one of the most important person, one of the most important people in Doctor's life.

She truly was the reason why he came back.

He could have easily died out there and we could have had a regeneration mid Interstellar Song Contest, but she brought him back and she brought him back to the reality.

So it really just shows that there's this grounding nature for the family.

Let's get a question to come really quick.

Yeah, for sure.

Did Shuti coming back to life also reminded you of Leia in The Last Jedi?

Yeah, very much.

So yeah, when he wakes up in the middle of space and then he's flying across.

Yeah, I thought that was very Star Wars inspired at that moment.

Yeah, I think it was that he also that he wanted to reuse this scene but in a Doctor Who community context.

Yeah, because it was just asking for it.

Yeah, definitely.

So I do, we are going to talk about the last two episodes together just because we are running out of time.

We want to keep this around an hour for you lovely people listening.

But there are also two parts of the same story.

So Wishworld and The Reality War were exceptional in the fact that as we talked about earlier, we got to see a world where one Wish, Conrad's Wish and his anger for the Doctor was gone and erased.

When we had the Ronnie who was using this to try to bring back Omega, who was, I love to find out people's thoughts on that as well.

But he's trying to bring back Omega, this big old monster looking Time Lord.

There's a lot to unpack in this episode.

What went right with Wishworld and Reality War?

Obviously, seeing them together in the cinema was a very good experience.

Going through Wishworld, I really enjoyed the setup of this thing and the little bits they did.

You've got these giant skeleton bone monsters that are there and not there, and you don't find out what they are until the reality war.

Then you've got the idea that if you question things too much, there's like slips that happen and then cups fall through tables and really enjoy-

Tables don't do that.

Yeah.

Obviously, bringing back Rogue for those like, I mean, I don't know why he was in hell for some reason, but it felt a bit like, oh, that's where gays get sent.

But in Conrad's world, obviously, not in real life.

But yeah, but now it was good to see him and then wish, and then you have the rest of it, you have the Doctor not remembering anything, with having to have one of his companions bringing back to reality.

And it was good that I liked how they explained how she remembered all of that, and because she's lived through these years before with the 83 Yards episode and all of that.

And then obviously, the whole idea that in Conrad's world, it's just disabled people that are just not seen, they don't exist, so they can go about and do whatever.

And the fact that they remember different bits from the old world.

And it's like he just...

And then obviously, with The Reality War, the fact, you know, it was like so much...

Oh, and the Wishworld as well with the Rani dropping.

So like, she's like, it's not just...

I forget what the term is, where you drop a lot of information at once.

What's the quote she says?

Yeah, like info dump, but exposition, that's not just exposition, doctor.

It's like happening or whatever.

I really enjoyed that bit.

It was so good having the Rani.

I forget what the other actress is called, but having Anita Dobson and the other actress.

Archie Punjab.

Yeah, that's it.

I think they were so like really good together as the Rani.

And I kind of wish she'd survived instead of the older Mrs.

Flood, but who knows if she'll be back as the Rani at some point.

But and then The Reality War, so ideas are all jumbled, getting out.

Words are coming out.

The Reality War, I really enjoyed that as well.

For the most part, I enjoyed obviously everything with the Doctor in that episode that he gets like his tilt back and like all of the, you know, nice doctory outfits.

I thought it was really good to see like that kind of like expression of an outfit in this episode.

And obviously Omega, even though he only comes back for like five minutes, it was sort of really cool to see that they'd made him this really big old creepy like skeleton that like, you know, ends up eating one of the Rani's and everything.

And then you had obviously everything else with like not reme- like you have Poppy in the episode because it's like Belinda's still a mother and it's like Poppy still exists and then she doesn't exist.

She gets forgotten by them both and then you have to have, you know, the explanation and then that's when the Doctor goes off.

And then obviously he saves the day and then Belinda gets to live happily but even though reality slightly shifted because it's like Belinda's sort of been a mother this whole time and it's like we've been sort of not seeing the right version of events, if that makes sense.

So I thought that was really interesting.

And then obviously, I presume we'll talk about it a bit later, but obviously the regeneration scene with all the-

We are not leaving before we talk about the regeneration.

I will just go over it quickly before, but obviously seeing the 13th Doctor, I don't think anyone knew she would return at all.

So that was like one of the probably best scenes in Doctor Who in sort of at least the past like 10 years for me.

That was such a good- Jodie says everything that everybody else is thinking is, Blimey, you're gorgeous.

Your face is absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, she gets it.

Yeah.

And then obviously the big regeneration into Billie Piper at the end and all the questions those raised, they were the two times that everyone sort of cheered and clapped in the theater as well.

So you knew they were like big, big moments for Doctor Who fans.

Lizzie, this was a big two-part episode.

What are your- like what do you think went well with Wishworld and The Reality War?

Well, just the surprise of Wishworld and then waking up with the doctor and Belinda in bed together.

As I said earlier, I was like, what?

So that was a little strange.

Really good episode, but there was a number of things that made me uncomfortable, and that's probably a good thing.

I mean, with what they were doing with people with disabilities and the misogyny and all, it's obviously Conrad's Wishworld.

I wasn't crazy about saying Conrad again, but he was giving me more reason to want to punch him in the face.

I wish Ruby would have punched him in the face.

She could have let him off too easy.

Yeah, she really did.

Jesus Christ.

Do we know why Ruby, did they say why Ruby recognized even that Poppy was supposed to be there and all that?

What made her different?

Did we understand that?

I think I missed that.

I think it's the mystery of Blonde Companions in Russell T.

Davies' era.

I guess so.

I think that you said it was because of what happened with 73 Yards, was because she lived through reality completely.

Oh, okay.

She was able to...

Am I making this up, Cam?

Am I making this?

No, I think that is what happens.

She's lived through 2025 before.

But in the reality that she lived through before, did she aware of Belinda having a daughter named Poppy?

Or was she just a nurse?

I don't know, but I think it must mean that she was more susceptible to...

I think the last 20 minutes of the episode could maybe have...

I think the line she says in The Reality War is that, I can remember all of the realities and timelines in my head.

The doctor just looks at her like she's crazy.

That's another whole thing we had to talk about.

About Ruby being gaslit by the doctor at the end was really hard.

But I think it was because she lived through 73 yards, therefore she was more able to be aware of what was going on.

It's how I got it.

Yeah.

The other weird thing was, if we're going with the idea that Belinda did not have a baby to go home to, they switched her at the end where she was so concerned to go home to her parents.

Then suddenly she was going to go live a life with the doctor in a very dangerous situation for the baby.

Then it turns around back into the baby disappears and she's like, oh, well, I never had.

I don't know.

That was confusing.

There was a lot good about the episode.

Then the Ronnie and Mrs.

Fledd were very good.

I'm glad Ronnie.

I was cheered when the Ronnie got eaten.

I was fine with that.

Anita Dobson was very fun.

Hopefully, she'll be back.

One of the things, I will say this, Vic, then I'm going to jump to you.

But I cried like an absolute baby.

When I had noticed right away as they were folding up the jacket, it was getting smaller.

It's terrible.

First off, let's get something straight.

Brian can cry about anything.

He just went and saw the live actions.

I just saw the live action Lilo and Stitch and I cried for the three-fourths of the movie.

It wasn't even just quiet crying.

I was sobbing in the theater.

There was noises.

I couldn't stop it.

But when they were folding that up and I said, oh, she's disappearing.

Then when you just see that look on Millie Gibson's face as she recognized, like Ruby recognizes that something's happening.

There's not been an episode from Shuddy Seasons I think that wrecked me as much as that one.

That moment.

And then when all of a sudden they were like, who's Poppy?

You could just tell that there was more story there.

And I would have loved to see what happened when that story was played out.

But that got me.

That hit me right in the feels.

So, Vic, though, let's talk about Reality War.

Let's talk about the Wish World.

I'm going to buy it on it from a very different side.

I'm going to start with that.

Wish World really reminded me of Turn Left.

And Reality War really reminded me of The Wedding of Riversong.

Two completely different finales, but I saw, I noticed a lot of adaptations of certain things from those episodes and they were really fun.

And one thing you guys didn't mention still was bringing back the Anita as the hotel manager of the Time Hotel.

I meant to mention that.

I was really happy to see her again.

She was terrific.

Yeah, I really liked this idea and thanks from the boss.

Boss says hello and we still have to find out who is the boss.

But the overall 2 arc episode was like, of course, I wanted to punch Conrad.

I wanted to smash my monitor just to hit this guy because he was so...

I don't want to say bad words.

I'm going to hold myself right here.

But the whole idea of focusing on Omega, on Ronnie bringing back Omega, it was really weird because I understood her motivations, but bringing him back as this old...

Did he look like a skeleton, right?

A huge skeleton that ate her.

I will say this about that, yes.

But I saw a theory about this and I think it makes a lot of sense, is that the Omega that showed up as that big scary skeleton was still a part of the reality that the reality that Conrad was building.

Therefore, he wasn't going to look like the Timelord that we know.

He was going to look like the monster that he had been promised by the Ronnie, which I think is very interesting.

It might also just be the Doctor Who fans stretching to make it work because they really want to just have continuity so bad.

But I saw that theory and I loved it.

Yeah, I more of expected to see him as Sudeck when Tom Baker was Doctor, like a similar look.

But it was very weird.

And I'm still not 100% sure about revealing Mrs.

Vlad as Durrani, but because if I remember correctly, Russell said in season one that he still doesn't know who she is, or he still doesn't know how to explain who she is, how to reveal it.

But it's still better to see that it's Rani and not the master for the 750th time once again.

I thought it was going to be the master.

Yeah, but then who picked up the tooth?

Well, we don't know.

They haven't told us yet, Vic.

We're waiting.

I saw a theory that someone said that the Archbishop of Punjab, Rani, picked up the tooth because they had the similar, almost the same, pain nails, yeah, fingernails.

It's still a theory, but it would make sense if she went back in time because she had her own TARDIS or something like that.

But the doctor has the only TARDIS in the entire world.

What are you talking about?

He said that how many times?

Fourteen doctor TARDIS, the TARDIS from the unit and all the other TARDISes that appeared.

Yeah, but he has the only one.

Maybe he has the only one that is unique to him.

Maybe.

I had a fun idea.

What if Susan is the boss of the hotel?

Oh, wait a second.

That's totally a guess.

But I mean, that would be...

That could work.

No, but she would have been evil.

Would it?

Oh, you think it's going to be that?

But yeah, because in the first episode of the 60th anniversary, the meep said, wait till the boss meets you.

Oh, okay.

But let's think about this.

Because what we saw from behind the scenes with the actress is that she was wearing a dark clothing, not like the one she was wearing originally.

But what if she needed the doctor to stay alive for Interstellar Stone Contest to get to the reality world, to get Omega, and she is evil?

Like, what if she's not happy about being left behind?

Because the doctor leaves her, and she's kind of upset about it.

He's like, go have a life and be free and have children and stuff like that.

Or if somebody pretending to, maybe they're sending a message as Susan.

Maybe the monster.

To get to him, but it's not actually.

Yeah.

I think it does go into what the original ending should have been.

The mom of Poppy did say that they were supposed to, Susan was supposed to be watching the doctor having a party, holding the hand of Poppy and was like, okay, let's go, mom.

She's like, yeah, we filmed that.

That was the ending that we filmed and they call this back for reshoots.

They even linked it.

So you could retroactively make her the boss now, but we'll never get the ending where she's with Poppy.

But that does lead us to the ending that we did get.

We got a regeneration, our IP to Shooty, we did not have enough time with him as a doctor.

But we got Billie Piper.

Billie Piper's face shows up, she says, oh, hello, and then we basically cut.

And it does not say introducing Billie Piper as a doctor, it just says introducing Billie Piper, which I think is very important.

Vic, what did you think about seeing our dear old Billie Piper back?

We knew what was kind of happening, we had seen the spoilers.

But like, seeing it happen.

It really prepared me for it because I would have a very weird reaction to it.

If I didn't know she's back, it would have been really bad, really messy, but also kind of happy.

What you mentioned, that she wasn't introduced as the Doctor, just like every other previous incarnation was.

I still think, and it's what I wrote in one of her chats, I still think it's somehow connected to her rose getting the TARDIS energy and Doctor pouring his own regeneration energy into the heart of TARDIS to break the reality.

And maybe that's somehow connected.

Maybe it's the bad wolf energy, you know, connecting with the Doctor, trying different faces, maybe.

Or maybe the real Doctor was sent somewhere in the universe and was replaced with someone else.

Or maybe a rose was, you know, maybe he was switched with Rose between the universes.

Who knows.

But it's a really good and bad thing about Russell T.

Davies because he's bringing back old faces.

But the good thing about it is that he always has a freaking amazing reason to do so, as his writing really has a good explanation for those kind of situations.

I would be happy if he stopped, if he stopped bringing talent, at least for now.

Thank God, Jodi Ncuti said that he's always the other guy popping up.

My favorite highlight of this episode was Jodi being back, not the other generation, sorry.

But I had a really negative opinion about the 13th Doctor era.

Jodi was one of those aspects of it that helped me get through it.

Still, at least till season 14.

Yeah, it was the flag season that I started liking this Doctor.

And her popping up, her popping back again, it was really nice.

And that she had an amazing interaction with Doctor, similar to what I think it was the 5th Doctor, that Peter Davidson, that had interaction with David Tennant in the Child in Need special.

Okay, yes.

Yeah, so it was really nice.

But the whole regeneration, I think it's, we won't quite understand it till the Doctor Who is back.

If it comes back.

Cam, you saw Rose on the big screen.

What was that like seeing that beautiful face?

And what are your thoughts on that regeneration?

It was one of the sort of biggest round of applause.

I think the cinema got, you know, in a long time, because obviously British people don't really clap in the cinema.

Like it's just something we don't do for Doctor Who.

It seems like it can be broken.

But no, I mean, I can see why people are sort of would be, you know, upset that they're bringing back old faces.

But I'm like, if we've had a Doctor, you know, it would be fun to bring sort of a companion's face back because, you know, it opens up a whole sort of new world of boxes.

Like, you know, you've got the whole idea that, well, the companion's like a known person and it's like suddenly they've turned into this sort of, you know, alien with two hearts that flies around in a time machine.

It's like, you know, what would Rose's friends think of that?

What would, you know, Rose's mom think of that?

Like if she was to come back, you know, that kind of thing, like if they ever bring her back, which I would love to see Russell T.

Davies do.

Obviously, it's a shame we probably won't find out for a long time because, I mean, I think Russell said he is working on seasons three and four, despite whatever happens with Disney and the BBC and whatever.

And I know there's like a soling contest about where it goes next, if Disney don't pick it up and that kind of thing.

But it will be very exciting to see what he does with Billie Piper as, you know, the Doctor.

And I think it's, yeah, I'm excited to see what happens because, you know, obviously we love Billie Piper.

Like, so getting her back into the world of Doctor Who, it's sort of, can only mean good things.

I hope.

I don't think we're done with Doctor Who on Disney Plus yet.

I think that there's a lot of negotiations going on.

But I did hear that Netflix is really ramping up to get their hands on it.

So we'll see if Netflix does it.

But again, Netflix has that bad habit of three seasons and they're out.

So we'll see how well they do.

Or are we just going to start hopping around from streamer to streamer and tell you?

Thank you for destroying the Wiktor Netflix.

Lizzie, what was it like seeing Billie back on the screen?

Like you, I, well, very shortly before I watched it, I looked at the spoilers that you guys had shared in the Discord there.

And so I knew she was coming.

She's not actually my hot take.

She's not my favorite companion.

So I could have done without.

I'm sorry.

It's OK.

Donna is my favorite companion.

And actually, I liked Belinda a lot as well.

But yeah, so it does feel like it's either getting into too many old time cameos like Star Wars has been getting into with some of their shows lately.

Sure.

But yeah, I assume she's not actually the next doctor.

She's going to maybe do some things for her.

And maybe it had to do with the TARDIS as a memory of her and something strange happening with him putting his energy in there that made him pick that base.

But I assume it's probably not going to last too long.

So I hope whoever's next is going to be really good.

I think what's genius about it is that it's going to bring back people like Tenet did.

We're going to get some more resolutions with some of these characters because I think that for Tenet to do the healing, he needs to almost come to terms with what happened with Rose.

And so to be able to see the two of them together, see Donna see Rose again, like her daughter's named Rose, like there's a lot of these connections there.

But getting to see, you know, I think it was, I think it was Donna, I think it was in The Blue Yonder where she says, you chose this face for a reason, like basically, like paraphrasing, but like maybe he needs to teach you something.

Like, yeah.

And so I think that this is what's happening.

Okay.

I think this is what's happening.

We're learning again.

We have Peter Capaldi, who's been in the world, come back and he had a familiar face.

We know that Tom Baker in the 50th anniversary talks about being a curator and how you're going to revisit faces periodically.

Like I feel like the seeds have been sown for over a decade.

And but this is like a really big one.

And I think that this is the one that I think could heal a lot of I think that like this is actually the clean slate they wanted with Shooty.

But like wrapping up the Tenet, because I think when they did the by generation, they thought, oh, people aren't going to care about Tenet anymore.

I feel like that's the one complaint I've heard the most is like, well, Tenet's still out there.

Well, Tenet's still out there.

Like Tenet's there with Donna.

And like there, I think that almost became like a ghost or a shadow over top of Shooty that he could almost never outrun because Tenet was always there.

I mean, even in Reality War, I heard, well, where's Tenet?

He's just chilling with Donna and nobody really gave him a shot because Tenet was always just there.

And I think that was my one worry when we first saw the anniversary special.

I said, this is like the optics of doing this with your first, you know, Black-centric doctor is going to be a nightmare if you don't do it right.

And I think that we saw some of that where people never gave Shooty a real good chance.

But maybe if they have Rose be one or two specials and then have her gone, have her go away.

I've heard this theory too of like unbi-generation, where basically like you have to come back together and heal, which would be really cool.

Get rid of Tenant as well and then be able to go.

I think there's some, a lot of things they can do with this.

They just have to do it right.

There's a lot of execution that has to be hit precisely.

And I think they need time to do that.

And this also gives them time to really find that next doctor who's going to be extraordinary, just like Shooty.

Getting off my soapbox yet again.

Yeah, I think the problem with Tenant is that he's like, his doctor is like the RDJ is to the MCU right now.

That he's this Jesus Christ that you always have to bring back in the most important moments.

And I think that overusing Tenant is a very risky thing at this time.

It's better to say that he's doing the healing, that he's not doing anything to, you know, to get into this conflict, especially at UNIT, where you know, that if he steps into the UNIT building, he already gets sucked into the different missions, he's gonna get sent to stop aliens.

He doesn't want to do this.

So, I think that the reason they're holding him back, it's not only because of the contracts or whatever, or not bringing him back, but there's a certain reason, just like you mentioned Brian, that he must come back in the most important moment to sort of reveal why Biogeneration happened and how it's gonna end, fortunately or unfortunately for the Doctor.

You know, I would fully embrace the, him and Rose have to come back together, and then he regenerates into Shooty again, give me another season with him.

We all are asking for it, we love it.

But, you know, we are running out of time, so I think we're almost gonna have to do another podcast for the spinoff shows and what the future holds.

So, you can check us out on thecosmiccircus.com or you can find us on Twitter and other social medias at My Cosmic Circus.

Thank you again for tuning in to The Cosmic Circle.

My name is Brian Kitson and you can find me on Twitter at Kitson301.

Lizzie, Vic, Cam, thank you so much for joining me today and having this great, excellent Doctor Who talk.

But before we go, where can the people find you?

You can find me at Ms.

Lizzie Hill on pretty much any social media.

And she's always working hard as the Editor-in-Chief over at The Cosmic Circus.

She never stops.

So we thank her for all of the continuous support and all of the articles she pushes out.

All the podcasts that she edits, all the social media that she runs.

It's a never-ending job.

Vic, where can the people find you?

You can find me on Twitter and on bluesky at irvryxalki.

And I think we should make it official that we must have Doctor Who Podcasts more than twice a year.

Well, we have another spin-off show coming up and we have speculation and we're going to talk about what's coming up.

So we got time.

We got time, Vic.

Don't worry.

Cam, my Ant-Man dude, where can people find you?

Yes, I am on Twitter at cammenfilm.

I also run Ant-Man News.

And then I'm just on other things.

Just you'll find me.

You'll find me.

I was going to just before we go, I was saying that I think I've been kind of known Cam before I've known anybody else on the site from Ant-Man News.

And he's always been a lovely follow on social media.

So follow Ant-Man News and follow Cam wherever you find him.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And with that, thank you so much for joining us.

We cannot wait for our next trip through the cosmos.

Take care.

Bye.

Primary stage conversion is now complete.

You belong to us.

You will become like us.

Oh fudge.