In this conversation, Ron and Ed take a close look at economist Russ Roberts' critique of utilitarianism. Can moral choices can be reduced to calculations of pleasure and pain? "No," says Roberts (and say Ron and Ed). Drawing on Roberts' essay Apples and Oranges, they explore why life's most important questions resist tidy arithmetic.

Is it possible to weigh justice against joy? Or kindness against efficiency? Ron and Ed unpack the limits of the ledger, where human dignity, love, and meaning refuse to fit neatly into the spreadsheet.