The Great Security Update: AI ∧ Formal Methods with Kathleen Fisher of RAND & Byron Cook of AWS

Dec 24, 2025

1h 39m

Episode Description

Kathleen Fisher and Byron Cook dive into automated reasoning and formal verification as tools for building truly secure software systems. PSA for AI builders: Interested in alignment, governance, or AI safety? Learn more about the MATS Summer 2026 Fellowship and submit your name to be notified when applications open: https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr. They explain how formal methods can harden critical infrastructure against AI-enabled cyberattacks, and how assumptions, specifications, and proofs combine to deliver real security guarantees. The conversation explores using these techniques to train coding models, enable a “great software rewrite,” and power AWS’s new automated reasoning checks for AI agents and policy compliance.

Sponsors:

MATS:

MATS is a fully funded 12-week research program pairing rising talent with top mentors in AI alignment, interpretability, security, and governance. Apply for the next cohort at https://matsprogram.org/s26-tcr

Tasklet:

Tasklet is an AI agent that automates your work 24/7; just describe what you want in plain English and it gets the job done. Try it for free and use code COGREV for 50% off your first month at https://tasklet.ai

Agents of Scale:

Agents of Scale is a podcast from Zapier CEO Wade Foster, featuring conversations with C-suite leaders who are leading AI transformation. Subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts

Shopify:

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CHAPTERS:

(00:00) About the Episode

(04:52) AI Reshapes Cybersecurity

(10:16) Formal Methods Foundations

(17:46) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 1)

(21:27) Sponsors: MATS | Tasklet

(24:27) Security Properties Assumptions (Part 2)

(28:31) Helicopter Formal Verification

(38:15) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 1)

(41:52) Sponsors: Agents of Scale | Shopify

(44:40) Proof Confidence And AWS (Part 2)

(50:33) Automated Reasoning For Policies