Legendary Democratic strategist Tad Devine — a senior adviser to Bernie Sanders' 2016 campaign and a veteran of multiple presidential campaigns — joins the Chuck Toddcast with a new book and a provocative thesis: the Democratic Party actively screwed Bernie Sanders, and in doing so screwed itself. Devine says he got angrier and angrier as he wrote the book, revisiting how Sanders couldn't get booked on the Sunday shows for years, how the nominating process was rigged in Hillary Clinton's favor by a party establishment that gave far too much weight to insiders and superdelegates, and how roughly half of Obama's 2008 supporters migrated to Bernie in 2016. Devine wrestles honestly with the central tension of Sanders' relationship to the party: Bernie would never actually register as a Democrat (unlike Zohran Mamdani, who embraced the label), begrudgingly agreeing only to put "Democrat" next to his name, describing his agenda as the "second agenda of Benjamin Franklin" and understanding perfectly well that the word "socialism" is toxic to many voters even as he refused to abandon it. The what-ifs are tantalizing: Devine argues that if Bernie had been declared the winner of Iowa on caucus night in 2016, the whole race might have unfolded differently, and that if Sanders had won the first three states, the establishment would have mobilized to stop him by any means necessary.

The conversation broadens into a sweeping critique of how Democrats choose their nominees and what the party needs to reform. Devine argues the party must give voters far more control over nominations, that the primary calendar is one of the most important and underappreciated parts of the entire process, and that independents should be allowed to participate in either party's primary rather than being forced to register months in advance. He credits Sanders with hitting on the enduring insight that the system is rigged against working people — a message supercharged after the Supreme Court unleashed the flood of money into politics following Obama's election — and makes the striking counterfactual case that Bernie would have beaten Trump in 2016 because, unlike Hillary Clinton, he could credibly run as a change candidate, and the white working-class vote wouldn't have broken so heavily toward Trump. Devine muses that Sherrod Brown would have made a strong running mate for Sanders, wonders aloud whether Bernie would ever have said yes to Clinton as a running mate, and argues that electing Bernie would have been a powerful national reckoning. He's clear-eyed about the party's deeper problem — the DNC is fundamentally risk-averse, and politics is about taking risks.

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Timeline:

(Timestamps may vary based on advertisements)

00:00 Tad Devine joins the Chuck ToddCast

01:15 Why do you say that the Democrats screwed Bernie?

02:30 Got more and more upset while writing the book

04:00 Sanders couldn’t get booked on the Sunday shows for years

06:45 Half of Obama’s supporters went to Bernie

07:45 Obama didn’t learn the fundamental lesson of his own campaign

09:45 The nominating process was rigged by the Democratic party

10:45 Gore didn’t control the party until he became the nominee in 2000

13:00 Why not play favorites when Bernie wouldn’t register as a Democrat?

13:45 Mamdani said he was Democrat, Bernie never would

15:00 Bernie begrudgingly agreed to Democratic Party next to his name

16:30 Bernie described his agenda as “2nd agenda of Benjamin Franklin”

17:45 People recoil at the word socialism, not necessarily the policies

18:30 Bernie understands the word socialism is toxic, but doesn’t care

20:00 Campaign needed to embrace the tapestry of America

20:30 Would election go differently if declared winner of Iowa on caucus night?

21:45 Both campaigns essentially said they won Iowa in 2016 primary

23:00 Bernie didn’t want to be a back-bencher, motivated him to run

24:00 Best measure of support is in open primaries

24:30 In how many states did Trump eaten into Bernie’s support?

25:15 If Bernie won first three states, establishment would try to stop him

26:00 Why did Bernie stand down for Biden?

27:00 Biden took Bernie’s infrastructure proposal and turned it into law

28:15 Was Bernie running to win or to make a point?

29:00 Tried to make a point, then grassroots energy swelled

30:30 The party needs to give voters more control over nominations

31:45 Dukakis wanted to get rid of the superdelegates

33:00 Democratic party gave too much weight to party insiders

33:45 It’s not just a DNC problem, there’s issues with media coverage

34:30 Primary calendar is one of the most important parts of process

36:00 Independents should be allowed to participate in either primary

 37:45 Had to register as Dem in fall of 2015 to vote in 2016 primary

40:00 Bernie hit on the idea that the system is rigged against working people

41:00 After Obama won, SCOTUS allowed the flood of money into politics

42:45 Most people want money out of politics, need legislation or amendment

44:15 Voters need to be empowered to solve America’s problems

45:15 How do we get leaders that will let the reforms happen?

46:45 Should we have a broader or narrower definition of Democrat?

48:00 It was remarkable that Bernie did so well with the youngest voters

49:30 Bernie would have beaten Trump, Hillary couldn’t be a change candidate

51:00 White working class vote wouldn’t have gone mostly to Trump

52:30 Sherrod Brown would have been a strong running mate for Bernie

53:15 Would Bernie have said yes to Clinton as a running mate?

54:30 Electing Bernie would have been a powerful reckoning

55:45 The DNC is risk averse and politics is about risk taking

57:00 Bernie shouldn’t run in 2028, he’s too old

57:45 When Bernie is with Mamdani, he seems like Bernie’s son

59:00 AOC - Run for senate or run for president?

1:00:00 Who will get Bernie’s affection as his successor

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