Change in cities is often slow, when using official channels. There is a desire to achieve the perfect plan, one that balances everyone's needs an preferences. But sometimes you need to get down and dirty.

In this episode, we talk to three of the co-editors of the new book Messy Cities: why we can't plan everything. Spacing Executive Editor Dylan Reid, public interest designer Zahra Ebrahim, and CivicAction CEO Leslie Woo talk about this collection of essays that embraces the beautiful messiness of urban communities.

And Danielle Goldfinger, executive director of The Laneway Project, tells us about a recent project aimed at helping communities make the most of their laneways.