When Dana Chisnell and Christian Crumlish took roles in U.S. federal agencies, they knew the work wouldn’t be easy. But what unfolded during their time under the second Trump administration went far beyond bureaucratic resistance. In this gripping conversation, they recount the painful dismantling of teams like 18F and the Department of Homeland Security’s Customer Experience Office—takedowns that were less about efficiency and service, and more about ideology and erasure. From executive orders scrubbing DEI language to gutting digital service teams and exfiltrating government data, they describe what it felt like to navigate a coordinated unraveling of public-serving infrastructure.

Yet out of the ashes, a new civic design seeds are taking root. Christian and Dana reflect on what it means to build systems that endure, how to design for accountability, and where the next generation of mission-driven designers, researchers, and creators might focus their efforts. There’s urgency here, but also a throughline of resolve and resilience: the belief that better government is possible—and that good people are still fighting for it.