Joey Zwillinger, the founder of Allbirds and Biologica, sat down with Jason to talk about the challenges of finding your ideal customer. Joey's done it both ways. Starting with a product and searching for the right people to buy it, and starting with a problem and building the solution. In this conversation, he breaks down what actually works when you're hunting for product-market fit, and what to do when your customers surprise you (because they will).

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