Jennifer Doleac and Kathryn Paige Harden have a conversation about their new books, both about crime and punishment.

Jen’s book: The Science of Second Chances: A Revolution in Criminal Justice.

Paige’s book: Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, the Problem of Blame, and the Future of Forgiveness.

Jennifer Doleac is the Executive Vice President of Criminal Justice at Arnold Ventures.

Paige Harden is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Texas at Austin.