Today we're sharing something a little different: a conversation Lee recently had as a guest on the With & For podcast with Dr. Pam King. Pam is a developmental psychologist, Executive Director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Seminary, and an ordained Presbyterian minister. Like Lee, she has spent much of her career exploring how faith, spirituality, and virtue can help people live with purpose, love, and meaning. Their conversation centers on the classical cardinal virtues, what Lee calls the "hinge virtues": prudence, justice, courage, and temperance. Lee unpacks how these ancient philosophical ideas can be broken down into concrete daily habits and practices, including the story of a student whose work with the virtues led her to jump out of an airplane and rebuild her relationship with her mother. Pam and Lee also get personal, talking honestly about the work of moving through shame and why healthy vulnerability is essential to our closest relationships. We're grateful to Dr. Pam King and the With & For team for letting us share this episode with you. If it resonates, go follow ⁠With & For⁠ wherever you get your podcasts.

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