In this lively and deeply reflective conversation, Janina Fisher, PhD and Bessel van der Kolk, MD revisit their decades-long friendship and parallel journeys through the emergence of modern trauma therapy. From their early research days in Boston to the global impact of The Body Keeps the Score, they explore how far the field has come—and how much there still is to learn.Together, they trace the shift from “the talking cure” to body-based and parts-oriented approaches, discussing what really heals: mindfulness, curiosity, compassion, and the slow unlearning of shame and self-blame. With humor and candor, they reflect on the limits of diagnosis, the evolution of trauma research, the importance of relational attunement, and the shared privilege of witnessing human resilience.At its heart, this is a rare, intimate dialogue between two pioneers who helped shape trauma therapy as we know it—and who remain lifelong students of its unfolding complexity.Key Takeaways:• How trauma treatment evolved from talk therapy to somatic and parts-based approaches• Why remembering isn’t healing—and what actually supports integration• The tension between research, manualized methods, and relational attunement• Compassion as the antidote to self-hatred and blame• The limits of diagnostic systems and “evidence-based” models• Why curiosity, play, and humility keep the work aliveLinks:Bessel van der Kolk, MD – https://besselvanderkolk.comThe Body Keeps the Score – Book on Penguin Random HouseTrauma Research Foundation (TRF): https://traumaresearchfoundation.org