Episode Description
When it comes to cults–from MLM to MAGA–the question everyone wants answered is: how do I get my loved one out? In this episode, Dr. Mara Einstein tackles that question with Dr. Tanya Johnson, a therapist specializing in religious trauma, cult recovery, and high-control groups. She explains the cult recovery process while providing insights from her experience growing up Mormon.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
- Dr. Johnson’s personal background growing up in the Mormon church in Salt Lake City and what “normal” looks like when the belief system is the culture.
- How doubt begins: the strain of “mental gymnastics,” and what it feels like to allow the thought “what if it isn’t true?”
- The “shelf break” metaphor—the point where accumulated contradictions collapse, and belief can’t be forced back into place.
- Belief isn’t purely a choice—and why high-control systems can be especially brittle when core truth-claims fail.
- The more a group demands obedience to an external authority over your own judgment, the more “high-control” it is.
- The aftermath: grief, anger, disorientation, community loss—and why leaving can feel like a death and a divorce at the same time.
How cults and high-control groups work (and how to recognize them):
- Dr. Johnson references frameworks like Steven Hassan’s BITE Model, but also offers her own practical lens: “location of authority”, who has the final say in your life—you, or an external authority you’re expected to obey?
If you’re trying to help someone who’s still inside:
- Why arguing facts often fails (closed-loop logic, thought-stopping clichés, fear, exhaustion).
- What works better: staying connected, asking calm questions, and keeping the relationship intact so there’s somewhere safe to land when the shelf finally breaks.
- Why vulnerability—not intelligence—is the real risk factor. There is no category of “people who could never fall for this.”
For therapists and clinicians:
- This work requires specific training, because clients from high-control environments may instinctively transfer authority to the therapist, making it essential to keep handing power back.
About the guest
Dr. Tanya Johnson is a licensed mental health counselor, clinical supervisor, and professor with specializations in religious trauma and cult recovery, neurodivergence, and cross-cultural communication. As a Cuban-American, queer, neurodivergent ex-Mormon, Dr. Tanya blends personal insight and over 15 years of clinical experience to her work. She supports clients through her private practice, Evolve Counseling Center, mentors early-career therapists in her membership community, Colorful Minds Collective, and teaches counseling students as an adjunct professor at Antioch University. Based in Miami, Florida, Dr. Tanya is licensed in both Florida and Washington State. She holds a BS in Psychology from the University of Utah, an MA in Counseling from Liberty University, and a PhD in Counseling with a specialization in Marital and Family Therapy from Barry University.
Counseling: www.evolvecounselingcenter.com
Colorful Minds Collective: www.colorfulmindscollective.com
About the host
Dr. Mara Einstein spent a decade in corporate marketing working for some of the world’s biggest brands before turning her focus to exposing the industry’s inner workings. Now a tenured professor of media studies at CUNY, she’s dedicated to helping people understand how marketing shapes what we buy, what we believe, and even who we think we are. With a background spanning business, media, and the arts, Dr. Einstein brings sharp insight and humor to the systems that sell us our identities—and the power we have to push back.
Pick up Dr. Einstein’s book Hoodwinked: How Marketers Use the Same Tactics as Cults on Bookshop.org (and beyond): https://bookshop.org/a/116018/9781493086153
Website: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com
Books: https://www.drmaraeinstein.com/writing
Instagram, TikTok, Threads: @drmaraeinstein
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Drmaraeinstein
Credits
Production: Multitude
Lead Producer & Editor: Bren Frederick
Music: Marc Langer
Cover art: Cayla Einstein
See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.