Pam King is back, and this conversation moved at the pace it wanted to. She runs the Thrive Center at Fuller Theological Seminary, and the framework she has built there is the most useful integration of psychological science and Christian theology I have come across — six facets that spell THRIVE, with a telos she calls the reciprocating self. We started with Stanford and seminary and ended with how the church is asking nine-year-olds to defend their interpretation of Torah when what they actually need is a fifth adult who knows their name. In between: the difference between flourishing and thriving, the Altadena fires Pam watched from her office window, how Winnicott's good enough mother maps onto how children come to relate to God, what Mark Labberton's seminary depression taught him about liturgy, why I rebuilt our confirmation class around questions instead of doctrines, and the prayer I have been praying with my daughter Khora since she was an infant. You can check out her previous visit on the podcast here.

Books we touched on:

• The Reciprocating Self: Human Development in Theological Perspective, with Jack O. Balswick and Kevin S. Reimer. Her foundational telos book.
• Thriving with Stone Age Minds: Evolutionary Psychology, Christian Faith, and the Quest for Human Flourishing, with Justin L. Barrett.
• The Handbook of Spiritual Development in Childhood and Adolescence.

You can WATCH the conversation on YouTube

Join our online class – THE FUTURE OF RELIGION⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Tripp and Ilia Delio are teaming up for a brand-new four-week online class, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Future of Religion ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠— for everyone who’s read the books, asked the questions, and realized the faith they inherited doesn’t quite fit anymore. Together they’ll trace religion’s evolutionary arc and map what’s emerging on the other side. Includes 4 video lectures, 4 live Q&As (replays available), and a community of fellow travelers. Donation-based, pay what you’re able (including $0). Live sessions start this month — register at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.thefutureofreligion.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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