What if the systems we built to protect us are the very ones causing the most harm? Attorney, restorative justice advocate, and policy advisor at Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS),  Sia Henry joins Mary Schaub for an unflinching examination of the American criminal legal system.  The system doesn't heal harm. It relocates it, multiplies it, and sends it back into communities more concentrated than before.

But this episode isn't only about what's broken. It's about what's possible when we ask a different question — not "how do we punish?" but "how do we repair?" From New Zealand's indigenous-rooted restorative justice model to Norway's open prisons, from the radical promise of psychedelic-assisted therapy to a man walking out of prison for the first time able to read a grocery store label, Sia maps a landscape of alternatives that are cheaper, more humane, and demonstrably more effective. And she connects it all to something more intimate: the micro-moments in every life where we choose exile or encounter, punishment or presence.

 Key Topics

✅Accountability vs punishment (and why the distinction matters)

✅How incarceration relocates harm and destabilizes communities

✅Trauma, ACEs, hypervigilance, and survival adaptations

✅Psychedelic-assisted therapies as a compressed path to healing

✅Education and healthcare as public safety infrastructure

✅Interdependence vs individualism as a root cultural fracture

Key Takeaways

💡Punishment isn’t accountability. Repair requires understanding harm, making amends, and changing future behavior.

💡Incarceration compounds trauma. It harms families and communities, then returns people with fewer resources and more wounds.

💡Systems protect themselves. Even superior models face institutional resistance when budgets and headcount are at stake.

💡Healing scales. When individuals heal, families and communities stabilize—public safety improves upstream.

Memorable Quotes

🎤“No part of the system is about healing… it’s purely about punishment.” — Sia Henry

🎤“When we say we want that person held accountable, what we’re really saying is that we want punishment… revenge.” — Sia Henry

🎤“A child who’s not embraced by its village will burn it down to feel its warmth.” — African proverb, cited by Sia Henry

Resources & Links

🔗MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies): https://maps.org/

🔗Mount Tamalpais College (San Quentin): https://www.mttamcollege.edu/

🔗Jonathan Haidt — The Righteous Mind: https://jonathanhaidt.com/books/the-righteous-mind/

🔗Portugal drug decriminalization (overview): https://transformdrugs.org/blog/drug-decriminalisation-in-portugal-setting-the-record-straight

Keywords  

Restorative justice, criminal legal system, mass incarceration, accountability vs punishment, trauma, ACEs, PTSD, recidivism, abolition, racial justice,

Disclaimer:

***The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice.***

Credits: Written, produced and hosted by: Mary Schaub. Theme song written by: Mary Schaub

Contact: FractalsofChange@outlook.com  

Website: M. Schaub Advisory (MSA)