We don't have a leadership crisis. We have a nervous system crisis. Executive coach, organizational psychologist and Founder and Managing Partner of Aergon, Dr. Thomas Gartenmann joins Mary Schaub to explore what happens when human biology — designed for a slower, smaller world — collides with the accelerating complexity of the polycrisis, the 24-hour news cycle, and the relentless pressure of modern organizational life. The result, Thomas argues, isn't bad behavior. It's biology operating without awareness.

Drawing on decades of work with leaders across cultures — from Swiss boardrooms to Asian multinationals to US consulting firms — Thomas traces a path from the body's automatic survival responses to the kind of conscious, relational presence that transforms not just individuals, but the systems they lead. Along the way, the conversation moves through road rage and Swiss train precision, childhood scripting and shadow selves, singing in a choir and what it taught him about listening, and the Egyptian philosopher whose answer to "who is the most important person?" stopped both host and guest in their tracks.

Key Topics

✅Fight / flight / freeze / fawn responses in homes, teams, and organizations

✅Leadership as modeling: culture change starts with the leader’s regulation

✅Responding vs reacting (Viktor Frankl’s “space”)

✅Playfulness and the “jester” archetype as a tension-release mechanism

✅Identity, self-states, and context (“Who are you, and how many?”)

✅Shadow in individuals and organizations; the risk of rigid labels (“toxic culture”)

✅Relational ethics: presence with “the person in front of me”

Takeaways

💡Threat compresses time. When activated, we’re not in the moment—we’re in the past, running a familiar script.

💡Awareness creates options. Naming internal activation (“I’m feeling angry” vs “I am angry”) opens a wedge of choice.

💡Regulation is contagious. A leader’s dysregulation spreads; a leader’s steadiness can also stabilize a room.

💡Language matters, but the body leads. Insight helps, yet real change comes from practicing state-shifts under pressure.

💡Joy can’t be forced. Chasing it directly often backfires; it tends to arise as a byproduct of safety, attunement, and flow.

💡Culture is patterned imitation. What becomes “normal” spreads—especially under stress—unless interrupted by conscious modeling.

Memorable Quotes

🎤 “The harm we’re facing today isn’t caused by bad people or bad intentions. It’s caused by nervous systems operating beyond their capacity.”

🎤 “If our nervous system is in fight, flight, freeze, fawn, we’re just reacting… We can’t create the future out of the past.”

🎤 “I make a difference between reacting and responding… I choose my response.”

🎤 “Life is a below-the-neck experience. It’s not happening in our head.”

🎤 “If I realize I’m not my thought… that relaxes me.”

Resources / External Links 

🔗Thomas Gartenmann — Airgon (airgon.com) — his consultancy integrating psychology and business leadership

🔗The Emperor’s Cupboard (2022) — Western psychology + Eastern wisdom for business leaders: https://a.

Disclaimer:

***The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice.***

Credits: Written, produced and hosted by: Mary Schaub. Theme song written by: Mary Schaub

Contact: FractalsofChange@outlook.com  

Website: M. Schaub Advisory (MSA)