Description

Dave Zahl has spent twenty years running a ministry devoted to grace. He also attends a church that preaches grace every single week—because by the time Sunday rolls around again, he says, he's already stopped believing it. For a lot of people, that sounds like a paradox, because church is where they learned shame in the first place.

But what if it didn't have to be that way?

This conversation explores why churches turn into venues for religious performance, why shame survives long after your theology changes, and how to find a place where grace is lived, not just talked about.

To support Faith After Faith, visit katielangston.com/support. A recurring donation of any amount will give you access to exclusive bonus content and full, unedited conversations.

Chapters

0:00 Dave Zahl on religious pressure cookers

0:45 The opposite of grace is shame

1:46 Mockingbird, Seculosity, and The Big Relief

2:26 "David is so hard on himself"

5:04 Austria, a breakup, and crying uncle

8:31 Acceleration, and running faster to keep what you have

12:22 Churches as venues for religious performance

15:49 The law: Leviticus, your mother, your Fitbit

16:27 Guilt is what you do; shame is who you are

20:03 Grace wears off by Sunday

21:30 Low Anthropology and the shame spiral

23:53 "You are not enough. But God is."

26:49 Which God? Zahl says look at Jesus

29:42 Nobody deconstructs away from Jesus

32:02 Liturgy, intergenerational, purple: what to look for in a church

35:12 Non-contingent compassionate alliance

36:54 What does faith after faith look like for you?

38:50 Credits and where to find Dave

Resources

• Mockingbird Ministries — https://mbird.com
• David Zahl, Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What to Do about It. Fortress Press, 2019.
• David Zahl, Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself). Brazos Press, 2022.
• David Zahl, The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace for a Worn-Out World. Brazos Press, 2025.
• The Mockingcast — Mockingbird Ministries