Joe and Toni talk to Ben Mankiewicz, an expert on Liz Taylor and Cleopatra—who are both quintessential showgirls Swift is obsessed with. In the episode’s middle segment, the three discuss the many parallels between the two Taylors that Swift alludes to in the song. Ben is an amazing storyteller and host of the podcast The Plot Thickens whose latest season is on the ill-fated movie Cleopatra, which starred Liz and which his great-uncle Joseph directed and wrote. If you want to fully understand the meaning of this great song, don’t miss this episode.

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