This episode was originally released January 26th for Death Panel patrons and is being unlocked today for the first time. To support the show and help make episodes like this one possible, become a patron at www.patreon.com/deathpanelpod

In the shadow of the federal occupation of Minneapolis and a year of catastrophic expansion of the carceral state, Beatrice speaks with Ruth Wilson Gilmore and Craig Gilmore about their concept of “the anti-state state,” the process of the state’s transition from supporting social welfare to policing its provision, and why abolition is the only way.

For further discussion of fascism and the anti-state state we recommend this week's patron episode with Alberto Toscano, which was directly spurred on by this episode with Ruthie and Craig. Link here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/late-fascism-w-150947880

Find Ruth WIlson Gilmore's book Abolition Geography here: https://bookshop.org/a/118130/9781839761713

Transcript: https://www.deathpanel.net/transcripts/anti-state-state-rwg

Show links:

We're testing out a new Bookshop.org page (still under construction), where you can find books by past guests and book recommendations from the hosts. Find it here: bookshop.org/shop/deathpanel

Get Health Communism here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9781839765179

Find Tracy's book Abolish Rent here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9798888902523

Find Jules' latest book, A Short History of Trans Misogyny, here: bookshop.org/a/118130/9781804291603

Interstitial music by Artie

Outro by Time Wharp: timewharp.bandcamp.com/track/tezeta