I spoke to Orwa Ajjoub about the remarkable rise of Syria's new ruler, Ahmad Al-Shara'a, from wanted terrorist to White House visitor. His ruthless pragmatism is his signature and we discussed this in some detail, including his relations with the Kurdish SDF, with Turkey, Israel and the regional states, as well as with the US.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices